Ali Nazar

Below is the transcription of the above interview, which was originally broadcast over the KALX airwaves on May 20, 2025.

Paula Burch: [00:00:00] You’re listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM University and listener supported radio. This is Berkeley Brainwaves coming at you from the Public Affairs Department at KALX and bringing you stories from the Cal campus. I’m your host, Paula Burch, and today with me I have Dr. Susan Stone, Dean of Cal’s School of Social Welfare.

The school recently celebrated its 80th anniversary, and Dean Stone is here to reflect on this important milestone and talk about the profession of social work in general. Welcome Dean Stone.

Dean Stone: Thank you so much, Paula. This is a great honor to be [00:01:00] invited to do so.

Paula Burch: Well, it’s a great honor to have you here.

The School of Social Work just celebrated at the end of last year its 80th anniversary, which is a pretty big milestone. Maybe expand a little bit on that and then maybe talk about what makes social workers still relevant in today’s society.

Dean Stone: Wonderful. So I am, um, as you mentioned, I have the privilege of being the incoming dean of the school as of July 1st.

Historical markers, like the 80th are a good opportunity to take stock of the past. You know, what, what does the school represent on campus? And also give us a chance to think towards the future. So one of the, the reasons that I so, I was attracted to, to becoming the dean of [00:02:00] the school at this time is because of several unique pieces of Berkeley social welfare, um, that I think have been enduring.

One of, one of its commitments, um, has really been to public social services very fundamentally. And, really appreciating and trying to live some of the organizing, um, and guiding principles of the social work profession, which is number one to really see that social issues are not, um, are not just individual problems. They, they are determined by our ecology. That, that social work really strives to see the strengths in individuals and [00:03:00] organizations, even amidst challenges. It’s a profession that is justice promoting, and, and then finally that, that it, it embarks on, it wants to use evidence to inform decision making.

And, those four principles together, you know, those have always bound us and I think historically, um, one of the distinguishing features of the school is because social work is a fairly broad profession, right? It spans because we claim that we wanna, that we care about ecology, we conceptualize social issues in a variety of different ways.

We acknowledge that individual, um, organizational, institutional, and policy factors basically shape individuals trajectories in life, their [00:04:00] wellbeing. And, so how that has historically represented itself in social work is, is a worry about concentrating social work too much on particular forms that social work is more than psychotherapy, for example. We have made a renewed commitment to that. Uh, recently by changing some of the elements of our MSW curriculum To really take up this, how, how do we really think about ecology, and, and really take up that as a social worker, you may be asked to practice at an individual level, at an organizational level, at a community level, or a policy level. We want you to acknowledge that those things may be necessary, but also know that depending on, um, how, [00:05:00] how, an individual social worker wants, to be of service, to help, to empower that we also want them to have a chance to dig in to the level of practice, um, that, that, um, that they are most passionate about, for example. Or that is most pressing. Um, so, so, so we’ve just renewed and are implementing a new curriculum that makes sure that no matter where you wanna go, that, that everybody has a firm foundation in that. I also think another element of our social work program, distinctively, is we actually really value a multidisciplinary faculty. Um, so that, that it is, we know that many social issues you need a lot of different perspectives to have complete pictures on understanding them. So [00:06:00] that you can ultimately, um, when appropriate, decide to intervene or implement some kind of a change strategy.

Paula Burch: Could you, could you expand a bit on what you mean? Like multidiscipline, what…. 

Dean Stone: Oh yeah. 

Paula Burch: Talk a little bit about that. 

Dean Stone: So, um, so many, um, some social work programs really wanna try to make sure that their faculty are only trained in social work. 

Paula Burch: Okay. Okay. 

Dean Stone: Okay. We, um, we expand that out, to folks who’ve been trained in public health, psychology, sociology, criminology, um, and we don’t leave it there. And all of those faculty care about a lot of the same concerns, but bring a different disciplinary perspective to it. So, we’re really thinking about how do we take these different insights to work together, not only [00:07:00] to understand complex and very, um, intractably, intractable social issues, whether it be homelessness, um, whether it it be poverty, um, whether it be mental health or health, and bring to bear those, those different disciplinary perspectives together. Then strive to be like, okay, here are the ideas about how we might understand it. What might promote betterment? And, all of our faculty are bound, um, up, the common element among us, um, is that our faculty care very much about populations that will potentially be rendered vulnerable.

Paula Burch: And, so in the school of social work, so myself, I’m a graduate, been some years since I graduated and it’s, it’s nice to hear about this [00:08:00] multidisciplinary sort of approach that it’s more, it’s more cross-cultural. Cross

Dean Stone: Yes.

Paula Burch: You know, cross departments. Because, when I was there, you know, you, you picked a, you picked a concentration. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: And so that was kind of how you looked at your field. You, you looked at it, I’m gonna go into mental health, or I’m gonna go into children and fam, children and families. And so it sounds like it’s really sort of becoming more holistic in terms of how… 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: Practice, which is as, as somebody who worked in the field of social work for a number of years, you know, you, you never just did one thing.

Dean Stone: No. 

Paula Burch: You were always wearing many hats and solving or trying, you know, being asked. To do things that you’re like, I didn’t learn this in school. 

Dean Stone: Yep. 

Paula Burch: And, how do I, how do I approach this? And so maybe talk a little bit, you, you have talked a little bit, but maybe talk about how this is kind of… 

Dean Stone: I really love this. I love, this is a really good [00:09:00] question and I’m gonna address it in two different ways. So right now we, um, we love the fact that there that that we want students to be able to concentrate in a particular area. But, we want, we have them hold off on that decision until after they complete a year of more general preparation.

Paula Burch: Okay. 

Dean Stone: So you, you have a very year. The curriculum is the same for all, even though we know that students coming in, some are very interested and passionate about aging. Some of them, um, are very passionate about children. Some of them might wanna do community organizing. Some of them might wanna, um, do more individual forms of direct service where whether it’s, you know, individual counseling to individual case management, we ask them to hold that in suspension to get [00:10:00] acclimated to a social work perspective.

So that then they can inform in the second year of the program how they wanna put, put together classes in more specialty intervention areas. 

Paula Burch: Okay. 

Dean Stone: And, and in the model that you grew up in, um, you were often constrained because you would say, my concentration of, my concentration is in this area. It would often structure your course taking and I think unintentionally we would then not invite students to think about, um, who are all, or what are all the perspectives? Let’s say I’m interested in, um, children, I need to know something, I need to know stuff about children and interventions with children. But, I also [00:11:00] need to know something about adults because 

Paula Burch: Because they’re the parents or the teachers or… 

Dean Stone: Yes, yes. And then, and then even thinking about it multi-generationally… grandparents, ight. And then I think the other piece that we knew is that we arranged services for folks. Typically by age. 

Paula Burch: Right 

Dean Stone: Or we arrange them by age, or we arrange them by kind of the, the, the area that you’re, you’re hoping to influence, whether it’s health, mental health, um, school, school performance and functioning, et cetera.

And, even though we organize systems in that way, that’s not how service users, that’s, that’s not life. Just because you have a mental health issue that you may come in with, it doesn’t mean you [00:12:00] simultaneously might be struggling with other health issues. And so because systems themselves or the way, the way we arrange systems to get access to care or services, um, are, a re siloed, we don’t wanna recapitulate that silo. And, you are, you, you, you raised the question, when we talked to alumni, they said exactly the thing that you did. Just because I’m doing mental health intervention, I’m gonna have to interact with professionals from these other systems of care, or I’m gonna have to, and I heard somebody elegantly say it, um, that I often have to help my clients span the boundaries that exist within the system. 

Paula Burch: Right 

Dean Stone: So, you might, depending on a given situation, you might enter and I, um, I’ll use schools that you might enter [00:13:00] through schools or your family might, you and your family might enter through schools. But then how do we, you might have identified issues that come up that transcend schools, so…. 

Paula Burch: Right 

Dean Stone: Social workers have to be cognizant about how you’re helping people sit or navigate these boundary spaces. 

Paula Burch: We’re speaking with Dr. Susan Stone, the Dean of the School of Social Welfare on, and we’re on Berkeley Brainwaves, KALX, Berkeley, 90.7. I’m your host, Paula Burch.

You do a lot of trial, trial by fire. 

Dean Stone: Yep. 

Paula Burch: You know, shooting from the hip when you’re a social worker, because that’s kind of how you have to approach it ’cause you’re in the field by yourself and… 

Dean Stone: Yes! 

Paula Burch: Nobody’s giving you, there’s no instruction. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: You know necessarily. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: You’re bound by ethics, you’re bound by, you know, certain rules of what your agency can provide or certain parameters.

[00:14:00] From what you’re saying, this I, this multidisciplinary approach, I think is a really good way in our modern world to, um, feel comfortable in other spaces and hear from different perspectives. 

Dean Stone: Yes! I think there are two elements of that that I love. First of all, we know that social workers are at their best when they have some level of tolerance for that ambiguity. As much as we can prepare you in the classroom, like in theory, this is how it should go, we can give you some, if you are doing this, this is what these skills look like. That’s a very, very different thing than practicing it in real life or, um, or, or taking, taking information from a situation in real time.

Agency [00:15:00] leaders. Individual clients do not give their stories to you in a very neat set of categories and so that you’re trying to take in, um, lots of information, um, give yourself a minute to try to synthesize it. Make sure that the way you’re understanding it resonates with the client.

Or, or, or a system. And, and then going, and taking it from there and, and so, so, so it’s a tolerance for uncertainty. It’s really being over time, trying to keep your humble learner. Attributes, um, that I don’t know, I get more experience, I might have knowledge, but being comfortable with unknowing and being willing to listen.

Paula Burch: Yeah, it has an improvisational kind of [00:16:00] approach to it. Like if you’re not comfortable with that, it’s either something you learn or it’s maybe not the right field for you. 

Dean Stone: Whether people would agree with us, because social work has a broad scope of practice. Unlike a nurse for, and, and you know, they get complicated issues too, but it’s typically the scope of practice, oftentimes, perhaps for a nurse or a teacher can be more clear.

Paula Burch: Yes. 

Dean Stone: So that, and I…. teachers and nurses don’t get mad at me ’cause all of our allied fields, um, actually there, there’s many commonalities among these fields. But because social work is like, you could be practicing at an individual level or an institutional level or bringing together this, it, it, it has a breath that certainly I love about it.

We try to help prepare students for that [00:17:00] breath and what it looks like when, when it’s like, okay, in my, in my head, and I think we’re gonna go this way, or this is in theory, what I would do for a case, or I think that the evidence is going in this direction. Uh, that’s, we try to prepare them through what is called practicum education, where we give them opportunities to practice what they’re learning… 

Paula Burch: Being in the field. Right. 

Dean Stone: And so students actually spend quite a bit of time with local agencies, doing a variety of different work, um, to, to to apply their, their apply what they’re learning about the profession and its knowledge and its skills and its values. 

Paula Burch: Sort of a learn by doing.

Dean Stone: Yeah. A learn by doing. And so that’s another way that I just think that. Um, you know, schools of [00:18:00] social work are so important to communities that we are, we actually are in learning collaborations with practitioners working amongst a wide variety of agencies and are privileged, um, to be doing so.

And, so that’s what I find just great about being a dean of social work because I get to think not only about the instructors at the school, our students, but I have a whole different set of partners who are doing in all sorts of agencies and in rolls across the Bay Area. Doing just really neat things.

Paula Burch: Yeah. Where do you see the field going, given that we’re post COVID and we’re, we’re kind of in a, we’re in a challenging time in this country. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: And, you know, we’re at a major institution here at Cal. Like where do [00:19:00] you see things shifting for the better and maybe, I don’t know. You know, maybe…. 

Dean Stone: So what, what has been on my mind a lot is right now, it seems to me that America at least, is probing the social contract and what it means to be, what, what contributing to the public good is. Social work has always cared about folks who, may be vulnerable or marginalized and maybe left out or not have access for reasons that really don’t have anything to do, that, that, that because of attributes that really shouldn’t [00:20:00] constrain your access. So I’m, I’m, I’m watching very carefully, um, how changes to our public safety net programs, investments in mental health, health, education. Those I think, are ways that we express our greatest intention, um, to a responsible public good.

And it’s really a fundamental social contract, I think we are measured by how we, um, address those amongst us. Who, for whatever reason, might be marginalized or vulnerable, for characteristics they don’t necessarily control. So that is what I’m keeping my eye on.

I think what is higher education’s role in this? I think social work programs in general, and because of [00:21:00] field education, we’re in an increasingly better position to ask how can we help. Agencies who are doing the work out there. 

Paula Burch: So while they’re… 

Dean Stone: Yeah 

Paula Burch: Maybe feeling like budgets are being cut… 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: And money’s being taken. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: And they’re being told you can’t do this and you can’t serve these people and you can’t serve these people…you’re feeling like it’s, it’s schools of social work and or Berkeley specifically that, can, kind of collaborate and align with these, these… 

Dean Stone: Yeah. Pressing needs. 

Paula Burch: Yeah. And how to sort of balance the scale of it. 

Dean Stone: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I really am a firm fan of engaged learning and engaged research where, we are, you know, we’re at a university, so we, we wanna do, you know, we’re committed to developing, you know, robust and rigorous [00:22:00] research to have good impact. You can’t do that on a one way street. Like in order to have impact, you need to know what the impact of your, your interventions, programs, services policies are having on the ground?

You have to be willing to learn from what’s on the ground. Whether it’s from, um, service users themselves, or it’s from practitioners, or if it’s from agency. Leaders, like, what do we need? What do you need? And how do we partner jointly to develop the next generation of social work? 

Paula Burch: Are you seeing AI helping sort of fill in some gaps or fill in some…

Dean Stone: This is, this is another, thank you for, for, for pushing me on that question. This is one of those areas where there is, um, it’s unfolding so very rapidly. And, my own opinion right now is we need to be watching it because there can [00:23:00] be tremendous ways that technology can help with some of the, some things that, that, that took a lot of time in the past to make, to, to take away kind of like burdensome paperwork stuff. To make it… social workers more able to actually dig into the work, you know, to manage the bureaucracy. On the other hand, we know that AI is dependent in many ways on the quality, of the data that are being inputted into to, to, large language models, for example. So we’re also, we also are concerned is do we have good, the right data in these systems to inform our decision making?

And so I, I [00:24:00] do really wanna see social work, bring a social work perspective to those conversations. And, and, and, and ensure that we have an ethical and equitable application. Of those new technologies and the rate at which is unfolding probably, yeah. We’re all in the midst of another revolution.

Paula Burch: Right. I mean, I think, you know, I, I look at COVID and I think, you know, there was so much that sort of got, there was so much upheaval in terms of how things were done. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: And then, you kind of, you know, those of us who are social workers, you know, we like that, that personal experience, but we also have to realize that we have to buy into it in some way.

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: You know, whether we want to or not. 

Dean Stone: You’re, you’re pointing out something we know post COVID a lot of… everybody was upturned. Right? And we did learn some, we did learn something that telehealth [00:25:00] and things that we thought would never work for some really helped with access to mental health care.

Right? On the other hand, I think that is the big concern. One, two things that, that social workers bring to the, to, to implementing services are, number one, our application of what we know about our values. The knowledge that we have to help us with decision making. Right? And we just noted there’s a lot of hard decision making in real time. You know, if there can be good assistance in helping with decision making, that might be really welcome. I don’t see that there will be a replacement of human relationships, and in fact, those will become even more important as we make [00:26:00] sense of these summarized forms, of we’re still, you know, AI can, you know, give us some directions.

We still are ultimately responsible for acting on decisions or reviewing those decisions and in figuring out how we implement those decisions. And social workers are always gonna say, is this just? Is this equitable? Does this reduce suffering? Does it, um, does it enable access to the best quality of service to the most?

Paula Burch: Right, right. And the ethical dilemmas always. 

Dean Stone: Yes. 

Paula Burch: I mean, those, those are a constant in social work 

Dean Stone: And, and there’s so many wide ranging pieces of where this, this could come into education applications. It could come into, you know, things as little as like note taking. It probably is gonna influence how we collect research [00:27:00] over time.

But,, um, we’ll see, we have a plug for our, we have many of our faculty are thinking about exactly this right now. How can this help our decision making? But what could be some downstream ethical implications of this here, which will make it work about populations we most care about? 

Paula Burch: Well, do you have any last parting words or anything you would like to talk about the school of the, the, the Cal School of Social Work in particular? 

One, one thing that I love about being a dean at a social, uh, at this school of social work, as you mentioned before, we’re in, we’re in a really polarized and unsettled times. I take peace that this is not the first time. Although it’s different. Yeah, when we’ve had very unsettled [00:28:00] times. Many would argue that some of the seeds of the profession emerged when society was also around the turn of the, 20th century when society was really having tremendous thematic upheavals that are different, but similar to, who, how much… how do we manage, the political economy? How do we manage depressions and economic shocks? And, social work brought together a very vast different constituency of folks who were all committed to this, um, common purpose, but came from very different perspectives on it. And, I think social worker is at its best when it embrace, embraces times of polarization to really [00:29:00] insist that we talk across boundaries for a common public purpose. So that makes me excited about the potential for social work in these particularly turbulent and uncertain times. 

Thank you. 

Dean Stone: Thank you.

Paula Burch: Thank you for coming. We’ve been speaking with Dr. Susan Stone, Dean of Cal’s School of Social Welfare, and this is Berkeley Brainwaves, a 30 minute show dedicated to telling stories from the Cal campus. I’m your host, Paula Burch, and you’re listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 fm. Thanks for listening.

 

 

Below is the transcript of the above interview that originally ran over the KALX airwaves on May 8, 2025.

DJ Seagull: So today I’m here with Dean Wareham from so many bands from Galaxie 500, Luna, Dean and Britta, and who has just released a solo album. And you’ve been touring that album, right?

Dean Wareham: Yes. We just got back from, uh, a month in Europe. It was, uh, a lot of shows and not many days off. It was grueling, but it was fun.It’s fun a nd then it’s exhausting too, but. We survived.

DJ Seagull: And you’re doing another like similar length tour in the US now too, right?

Dean Wareham: Yeah. We’re, we’re breaking it up a little bit, so it’ll be, it’ll be easier than that, than that one was. Less grueling. Yeah, we’re doing the West coast in May, and then we’re doing like, um, East Coast and Midwest in June. Not doing the South, and people are asking, why do you hate the, the southern states? I, I don’t, it just worked out that way.

DJ Seagull: And is your touring band, like, do you have different touring bands for different legs of the tour or anything? Or is it all the same people?

Dean Wareham: It’s going to change to the East Coast, but for the, for the West Coast, it’s the same.
It’s the same that I just toured Europe with, which is, uh, myself and then Brita on bass. Roger Brogan on drums. He’s been playing with us for a long time. He played on, on the record and on the, my last record. And we had a neighbor of ours here in LA named Matt Papieluch, who plays in a band called Big Search.I don’t know if you know them. And he used to play with Cass McCombs and Paper Cuts.

DJ Seagull: Mm-hmm.

Dean Wareham: He was great.

DJ Seagull: When you tour, do you like ever think about like you choose like which bands you wanna tour with? ’cause you have so many bands, like you have Luna and you have Dean and Britta, and then you have your solo stuff.

Dean Wareham: Well, we are gonna do some Dean and Britta shows. Actually we’re going back to England doing some, trying some shows just as a, as a duo. But, um, I guess ’cause I have a new album out, it made sense as Dean Wareham and Band. And then, uh, Luna is a whole other thing.

DJ Seagull: Yeah. I figured like that would be more planning and stuff. You have to coordinate with more people.

Dean Wareham: Yes, we’re scattered all over the place and we might tour again next, next year. We’ll see.

DJ Seagull: So that’s something we can look forward to? U.S. tour?

Dean Wareham: Yes.

DJ Seagull: And will you go to the south on that one?

Dean Wareham: I mean, usually we do like Atlanta. And Chapel Hill. Uh, we don’t usually go to Florida.
It’s been a long time since we’ve been in Florida. We did play Birmingham, Alabama. Birmingham, I guess they say down there Birmingham. In England, it’s Birmingham, and my name is Wareham. Which you got correct.

DJ Seagull: I looked at the interview, so I was like, how do people usually like pronounce it if they pronounce it?

Dean Wareham: Oh, some people say… it depends. If I’m at the DMV and they might call out, uh, Mr. War. In Spain, Raham.

DJ Seagull: Interesting. Well, people do that with Berkeley too sometimes. Uh, especially the English bands will call it Barkley.

Dean Wareham: Oh yeah, yeah. Barkley.

DJ Seagull: And like, when you do set lists for your solo tours, how do you like pull from your, ’cause you have such an extensive back catalog.

Dean Wareham: Well, I’ve been doing a set, it’s coming out and playing like six new songs in a row. And I can see it kind of tests people’s patients a little. I don’t know thhis one, I don’t know this one, I don’t know this one,,,And then, um, after we do that, then we play some of my earlier solo stuff or. We did a lot of Galaxie 500 songs on that last tour. Couple of Luna songs too.

DJ Seagull : Are you gonna plan on doing like this, a similar set list on the US leg of the tour you’re doing? Are you changing them? And this is more of a fan question, but why don’t you play Super Freaky Memories more on your tours? Can you please play Super Freaky Memories in San Francisco?

Dean Wareham: Okay, I’ll make a note. We kind of, we did, we did practice it a little bit. Mm-hmm. And then when, then we were like, we’re thinking we’d play it on tour and then we never did. But, um mm-hmm. All right. I’ll make a note to myself. Freaky Memories, request for that. Except in Spain, people in Spain, people like it. It was sort of like a, I don’t wanna say it was a hit ’cause I’ve never had a hit, but it was, it, it was, uh, it was popular in Spain. It was a single.

DJ Seagull: yeah. ’cause you say in your book the album was kind of a dud, but I think there’s some gems on it.

Dean Wareham: I think. Yeah. There’s some nice stuff on there. And, um, sometimes we’re not, we’re not the best judge of, of, uh, of our records and or you can’t tell till like 10 years have gone by. Then you go back and listen to it and you’re like,

DJ Seagull: and you said you’ve never had a hit. I mean, I feel like those three Galaxy 500 albums qualify, at least in the indie world as a hit.

Dean Wareham: Yes. There, we had hits at, at college radio.

DJ Seagull: Yeah. But that’s all that really matters, right?

Dean Wareham: Yeah, it’s true. No, it’s not true. No, it depends. Yeah. Some people have hits that buy them houses. And so that’s not that kind of hit. Yeah, that’s obviously, there’s some songs that have lasted a long time mm-hmm. That people are still listening to, so that’s pretty amazing and I’m thankful for that.

DJ Seagull: And you, we were talking about your touring a few years ago, Luna Tour, and I saw them and there was like a family that was following your tour around. Do you remember that?

Dean Wareham: That, was it a family? You mean with children? No. Yeah,

DJ Seagull: they had like a kid and they were following the tour. Did you feel like the Grateful Dead?

Dean Wareham: Uh, on a, on a much smaller scale, we do have some fans who will come. We have a few Swedish fans who fly to San Francisco to see us still. Oh my gosh. And, uh, there is, yeah, there’s a sort of a group that go to a lot of shows. You know, it’s to see us, but also to see each other. I think kind of a fun thing to do, plan your travels or plan your vacation around and go see the band.

DJ Seagull: Is there a band that you would, you would plan a vacation around seeing?

Dean Wareham: Um, well, I don’t have to ’cause I live here in, in Los Angeles. Yeah. See,

DJ Seagull: everyone comes there anyway.

Dean Wareham: Yeah. So it’s more like if you live in some far-flung place where, where the people don’t come.

DJ Seagull: Last year you released an album with Sonic Boom, right?

Dean Wareham: Yes. Uh, a holiday album of Christmas cheer. Yeah. Dean and Britta and Sonic Boom.
Britta and I recorded most of that here at, at home over the years and, uh, when we mixed it at, uh, at Sonic Boom’s Studio in Portugal. It turned out really great. It’s quite, it’s quite lovely and uh, we hope that people listen to it every year.

DJ Seagull: This is your first album that you’ve actually made together? ’cause he’s produced for you before, right?

Dean Wareham: Yeah, he’s really done. Like he did, uh, he did a, an EP of remixes after the first Dean and Britta record. He remixed five songs, which was really kind, it was really cool. He took this tracks that we recorded and kind of stripped out the drums and just put drones through them and it was, it was really nice.
Yeah. It’s the, but it’s the first full album we’ve done together. Yeah.

DJ Seagull: And this has all been like fairly recently, these collaborations, but like you’ve known each other for a long time and you were a big fan of Space Men Three. So like what is it like to finally like work together?

Dean Wareham: Well, you learn from everyone you, you work with and it’s so, it’s fun watching him work.
He is a strange kind of genius. He’s just very like focused. It’s just like, his own world of like synthesizer sounds and tremolos and delays and. Amazing to watch him work. What’s great about, about Sonic Boom is he’s, uh, just constantly pushing himself and reinventing himself. He’s not just like making the same record over and over again. And while he doesn’t make a lot of records, actually, I mean, he’s, he produces stuff, but he hasn’t made a lot of solo albums. He’s not repeating himself. And I think he gets a lot of, a lot of psych bands like call him like, Hey, we wanna work with you. And he is like, well, he wants to, to do something different. I don’t know. I mean, listen to the record he did with Panda Bear. It’s really. There’s nothing else like it. So if you can do that, that’s an achievement to make a record that’s unique.

DJ Seagull: And he, like, he may might not make that many records, but every record he like makes, you know, it’s like, like real big. And you’re talking about like reinventing yourself recently and DJ Rare Earth was kind enough to share the interview that he did recently with Naomi Yang and she was talking about like how she wouldn’t wanna reform Galaxie 500 because she’s feels like, um, she’s moved past that style. Like she’s kind of reinvented like what kind of music she makes. Do you feel the same kind of way about that?

Dean Wareham: I don’t know. I guess, I mean, looking at the songs on the new record that’s, this chord structures are probably more complex than I did with Galaxie 500. Mm-hmm. But my playing style, isn’t that me? My, my voice on guitar is not that different. It’s kinda the same. This voice, this one that I’m using right now. Well, I guess it’s a bit lower than it was, but I can still, I can still sing those songs. I can still hit the high notes for now. Um, and I enjoy doing them.

DJ Seagull: She said that sometimes when she sings the Galaxy 500 songs, it feels like a karaoke version. And so you don’t think that though?

Dean Wareham: No, I don’t. But you know, I, I guess I sang.

DJ Seagull : Yeah.

Dean Wareham: Well, she only sang a couple of songs in, in Galaxy 500, so I don’t know if. Maybe that would feel more like karaoke if she’s singing my, I don’t, I don’t know what she was doing.

DJ Seagull: You’ve never gone to see them?

Dean Wareham: I have not been to see them live. No. We get along, we get along fine on, on email and, um, with her this morning about ordering some t-shirts.

DJ Seagull: Oh, for like, for the Galaxie 500. ’cause you’ve been like reissuing stuff.

Dean Wareham: Just ’cause we always make t-shirts and Oh, there’s that too. We always have to talk about the, about the records. About the records, yes.

DJ Seagull: The new releases.

Dean Wareham: Yes.

DJ Seagull: So no like Oasis type reunion tour?

Dean Wareham: No, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. I don’t think they’ll, um, gee, the kind of money that Oasis gets

DJ Seagull: it’d be like the Oasis reunion of the indie world!

Dean Wareham: So the Oasis reunion, when you look at it, you say it’s an Oasis reunion, I guess it’s a reunion of the brothers.

DJ Seagull: Yeah.

Dean Wareham: They loathe each other in the way that only brothers can. But then at the other band members, I, I don’t even know who else is in Oasis.

DJ Seagull: Like, uh, Andy Bell from Ride

Dean Wareham: Andy. Well, we’ll see how long that reunion lasts. You know, Van Halen, when they got the, they didn’t last long when they brought David Lee Roth back, did they?

DJ Seagull: did he still do like the, did he still like, jump around and do like splits in the air and stuff?

Dean Wareham: I didn’t go see them.

DJ Seagull: No?

Dean Wareham: I was not a big band Van Halen fan, but I like Jump. I like that song. I know, I know. Out here in, in California, I know a lot of people are like, oh, Van Halen. They were like a punk band. I’m like, no, I don’t think so. But uh, that’s okay. They were your punk if you like it, but I don’t.

DJ Seagull: And your new album, Kramer produced it. How was it like just you two rather than like him working with like you and a band?

Dean Wareham: Uh, yeah. It was great. It was, it was great. We spent six days in the studio. We worked super quickly and, um, he’s got, he is got like a vision for the song very quickly and he is just. He doesn’t like to sit around and waste time and argue about things like some producers do. There’s this joke: How many producers does it take to screw in a light bulb? I don’t know. What do you think? He is not like that. It’s Decisions. Decisions. Let’s move on. And he’s an, he is a great musician, so he played, he played on a lot of the tracks. The piano, Celeste, or the Moog solo, or the tipple, which is like a little string instrument.
So we did the six days and then we left the studio. And then, um, I had to wait a while for him to send in the send in the mixes, but uh, they were very exciting.

DJ Seagull: And you do, uh, a Nico cover in German on that one?

Dean Wareham: In Deutsch, yeah

DJ Seagull: You speak German?

Dean Wareham: Yeah, I can somewhat, I do speak German somewhat, yes. Mm-hmm. I wouldn’t call myself fluent, but I, I took German in high school. I took some in college. I lived in Germany for a year in 1986, so I speak some German enough to get by.

DJ Seagull: Does anyone ever, when you do covers, ’cause you do a lot of covers in other languages, like do they ever correct you?

Dean Wareham: My pronunciation in German is actually really good, so Um, if I had to do like French, my French, my accent is pretty terrible. Bonnie and Clyde have sung the song so many times. Good. Do you speak French? And I’m like, no.

DJ Seagull: Um, but so, but it was like working with Kramer, it was like, fine this time? ’cause it seemed like he was kind of like, he kind of pushed Galaxie 500 apart, but this time it was just like, ’cause just the two of you,

Dean Wareham: I don’t think he pushed us apart. Whatever… there was, you know, the tension in that band, I don’t think it came from Kramer. Whenever we’re on a tour together, that always adds some. You’re traveling with people,

DJ Seagull: but it seemed like he started to grate, especially like in the interview, um, we did with Naomi. It seemed like she got kind of tired of him a little bit.

Dean Wareham: Well, they went on and made two other albums with him at the time. Right? Oh,

DJ Seagull : really?

Dean Wareham: After Galaxie 500. They did. Yeah. I think they did two records with him and yes, there was a part where we were on tour when they got tired of him getting, getting on stage with, yeah, he used to get on stage with us to play a few songs and I think yeah, on that final European tour, they were like, we don’t think Kramer should get on stage with us anymore. And told him that, but then we played the Glastonbury Festival and he was those who there doing our sound, 30,000 people, the sound booths a long way, away. And we’re out there on stage and I tell about he couldn’t resist. He had to get on the stage with us…

DJ Seagull: Well also it was like a three piece band. You might wanna add, you know, another guitar to like make the sound bigger.

Dean Wareham: Yes. It does. I mean, the thing is, it was a three, we were a three piece band live, but on record, it’s always, every song has at least two guitar tracks on it. It does fill it out a little, especially when I’m playing a solo. It’s like the bottom doesn’t drop out of the song,

DJ Seagull: But now he gets to live his dream. Now he’s on the album. Yeah?

Dean Wareham: Well he was on those albums too, and it in some ways. But yeah, it was pretty cool to, you know, after 34 years now, I could do another one together.

DJ Seagull: Yes. Are you planning on doing another album?

Dean Wareham: I, I get, I imagine I’ll probably make another album.

DJ Seagull: Mm-hmm. With Kramer specifically.

Dean Wareham: Oh. With Kramer? I don’t know. I haven’t thought that far ahead. I’m just touring this one now. Yeah.

DJ Seagull: You don’t like write stuff when you’re on tour?

Dean Wareham: No, there’s no time. It’s like barely time to like lie down for, for 20 minutes. At least the way we tour, it’s just go, go, go. The only time I write songs is when, if I’ve, uh, made an appointment in a studio.

DJ Seagull: You just write them on site and then record them?

Dean Wareham: Well, no, I don’t write them on site. I, I, you know, I start, but just like I’m saying, if I Oh, if you have a

DJ Seagull: Deadline?

Dean Wareham: Yeah and I’m Like, okay, I, now it’s time to write some songs, but I’m not writing, I don’t write songs, so all year long.

DJ Seagull: Do you have like other artistic things that you’re doing or just hobbies that you’re doing besides music because you, are you even in like movies and stuff too?

Dean Wareham: Well, you know, the only person who casts me in movies to act is, is Noah Baumbach. He has a new movie coming out. I think, I think I’m in it, I think I have a couple a, a line or two. I play, I’m playing an actor, it’s a movie with um, George Clooney and Adam Sandler. So they were both in the scene too, but I didn’t actually interact with either of them. I think George Clooney’s like behind me somewhere in the shot and. Um, what else do I do? I don’t know. I’m just, as artists, we’re pretty busy in things that are not music.

DJ Seagull: Yeah.

Dean Wareham: You know, like being a travel agent or just administrative stuff. And actually, and I’m, you know, I was running my own label with Britta Double Feature Records for, and so this record came out on Car Park records and I’m very happy about that. ’cause that’s just like. That’s just kind of a, a weight lifted. They just, they, they know what they’re doing in a way that, I don’t know what, and just have someone else do a lot of that work is nice, but you know, we’re all, especially when an album is out, more social media stuff than ever. And so much of the press that we do, I mean, this is nice. This is just an interview. All I have to do is talk to, you have to do any homework for this, but some of, some of the things there were like. Hey, can Dean write something about this or write, you know, give us a playlist and write a paragraph about each song. And that’s kind of the way it is, I guess, that nobody wants to pay anyone. How can we get the artist to create content for us? And anyway, I, I shouldn’t complain. It’s nice that people care.

DJ Seagull: Well, the playlist ones are really always really interesting. You know, see what people you, you listen to are listening to.

Dean Wareham: Okay, good. Well that’s good to know.

DJ Seagull: Yeah. But like, what else do they make you write about?

Dean Wareham: My own songs. So it’s always like, so now it’s like, like for the record, so you gotta like think of something to say about each song. And some songs, there’s something interesting to say about. And some songs, there really isn’t anything very interesting to say, but some songs, there really is a story behind themselves. I guess it’s a good exercise where the songs come from and often when you, often there’s a, there’s a song behind a song, you know, lifted the chord progression from someone else or, or taken the idea from a book or, that’s what I do anyway.

DJ Seagull: Are you thinking of any song specifically on this album when you’re talking about that?

Dean Wareham: I, we could say like the song Bourgeois Manque on this record. That phrase, bourgeois manque. When I was in, in German class in high school, I read this story of Tonio Kroger by, it’s is the name of the story. It’s by Thomas Mann. It’s an early story of his, and it’s about this writer who goes back to his hometown and they want to arrest him anyway. And he is talking to his friend about how he’s and his friend says him, well, you know what? You are, you’re a, you’re a bourgeois manque. So I, I, uh. Thought that was a good phrase to write a song about. But then I started delving into it and I’m really like, actually she doesn’t call in the German, she doesn’t call him that at all. But for some reason it’s a French phrase, put it the English translation. But I wrote a song called Bourgeois Manque based on a note taken, you know, like 40 years ago. But then, um. The song itself, I’m sort of, well, I referenced the, the horror unfolding in, in Gaza, but that’s a song where actually going into the studio, I was like, this, I don’t think this is a very good song at all. There’s nothing here. I’m just, I’m just like talking over two chords, going back and forth. But um, when we started playing it in the studio, it sounded really good. Kramer did a great job on that one.

DJ Seagull: And I think this is one of the interview questionnaire things that you were talking about. Um, but I read that you said you like to work with Cat Power.

Dean Wareham: Well, she’s a great singer. You know, she’s just one of those singers who could make anything sound good.

DJ Seagull: Yeah.

Dean Wareham: Like Nina Simone or, or Johnny Cash, whatever.

DJ Seagull: mm-hmm. And you do, you guys both do kind of like similar type of covers too.

Dean Wareham: I think you’re right. We sort of like slow them down or strip things out of them or, but.
She’s a, she’s, she was a Galaxie 500 fan. I’ve met her a few times over the years.

DJ Seagull: I mean, who isn’t a Galaxie 500 fan though?

Dean Wareham: Yeah. Right. Some people aren’t. Some people hate Galaxie 500. That’s okay. It’s not for them.

DJ Seagull: The video for That’s The Price of Loving Me. You like, kind of do like date stuff by yourself. Did it feel a little awkward to film that, like to be in a, in the swan boat by yourself?

Dean Wareham: Well, it was funny ’cause I went with the, the, the director. It was just the two of us. There’s no crew. It’s just him with this high 8 camera that kind of makes it look kind of flat, like digital nineties. Cheap looking. When we went to rent the swan boat, and I live near that park, and see people out there in the Swan Swan boat, the paddle boats, and I’ve never been. Anyway, we walked up to the, to rent a boat and we’re like, ’cause we, he had to be in a different boat shooting me, but we didn’t have a license to film. So anyway, the guys like, we were like, we want our own boats. And he was like, well it’s usually two people just go in one boat. It’s a lot easier to paddle. And we’re like, no, we run our own individual boats. Everyone in LA probably expects you to like pay if you, if you wanna shoot out here, you gotta pay. Yeah. It turned out, turned out kind of nice. I was like, let’s just shoot me um, eating a cheeseburger at this place, Patra Burger, which is now, it was just up the street on Sunset Boulevard and then, and the day after we shot, they closed it. It’s gone forever. And I just drove by there yesterday and already they’ve demolished it and they’re putting up something new. People are upset. Patra Burger is gone!

DJ Seagull : Well, you’ve immortalized it in your video now.

Dean Wareham: Yeah. It was a cheap burger.

DJ Seagull : Well, I did a lot of research in your, in the book you wrote and you wrote a, this almost 17 years ago, you wrote that book, Black Postcards. Is there anything you’d change about it, um, specifically like the opinions you put about other musicians, which I found very entertaining, but would you like change anything about it now?

Dean Wareham: You mean musicians I insulted?

DJ Seagull: Yeah, it’s, yeah, some of them.

Dean Wareham: I guess there’s a few, there’s a few things I would change I’m sure I, I don’t know. I haven’t looked at it in a while. I’m sure there’s a lot, but I don’t get to change it. So,

DJ Seagull: yeah.

Dean Wareham: So that’s it. Um, yeah, there’s a few things I would, I think what I learned is if you’re going to, um, say something slightly insulting about someone, they may, then you should change their name.

DJ Seagull: Did people like write to you and complain?

Dean Wareham: A couple of people did. And I was like, well, did you read the book? Did you see what I said about myself? Because I, I think I was harder on myself than it wasn’t anybody else. Oh, well.

DJ Seagull : you did say some nice things too, like you said you, your favorite or the best, uh, Seattle band was the Screaming Trees, which is the objectively right opinion to have about Seattle bands.

Dean Wareham: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I don’t know. I was probably like mean about like Billy Corgan and Eddie Vetter. I’m sorry. I’m sure Eddie Vetter is a nice guy. Billy Corgan is not a nice guy.

DJ Seagull: Do you think that you’re a fox or a hedgehog?

Dean Wareham: Um, I’m a hedgehog. Yeah.

DJ Seagull: Yeah?

Dean Wareham: Definitely a hedgehog. I’m not, uh, I’m not that versatile. I’m pretty, uh, limited. I’ve got like, sort of the one area that I burrow into. Like a hedgehog. Yeah, definitely a hedgehog.

DJ Seagull: it real fast too. Have you thought about it before?

Dean Wareham: Um, I just think it’s obvious

DJ Seagull: you are not trying to hide it.

Dean Wareham: No. Okay.

DJ Seagull: Well thank you so much for agreeing to, um, talk.

Dean Wareham: Oh, sure.

DJ Seagull : Do you have advice for students during finals season?

Dean Wareham: Take the test, just do it. Uh, I don’t know. I remember a couple of times when, when I was in college, I think every year I, like, I called in sick for a final and then you gotta go back and do it like in October, which really sucks. And like, I wish I hadn’t done that. That was… But I remember the last time I went into the, to the university health services to say, look, oh, I’ve got a really bad stomach bug. And I could hear the doctor in the next office saying, look, there’s a definite pattern here. I don’t even wanna talk to you this time.

DJ Seagull: That worked in college to say you had a stomach ache and then you got outta stuff?

Dean Wareham: Yeah. They didn’t want to fail you.

DJ Seagull: Consolation for the students here.

Dean Wareham: Uh uh. Yeah. They don’t want to fail you. It’s true. I can think of one exam I took, like my computer science class. I was certain that I failed it, but somehow I just, I got a D. And D is a pass, right? Yeah. Yeah. It’s uh, what they say, below C level.

DJ Seagull: Okay. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. You are playing in San Francisco at the Chapel on the 17th of May.

Dean Wareham: Yes.

DJ Seagull: Have a new album out called That’s The Price of Loving Me and I wanna thank the KALX interview Department and Rare Earth who sent me his interview very last minute. I asked for the copy of the Naomi Yang interview and they sent it. So thank you so much.

Dean Wareham: Come to the show please!

Hi, this is Dean Wareham and you are listening to KALX Berkeley.

 

Below is the transcription of the above interview, which originally aired over the KALX airwaves on September 20, 2024.

Poindexter: [00:00:00] And I have here in the studio with me, Linda Smith. Hi, Linda.

Linda Smith: Hi.

Poindexter: Thank you so much for joining us today.

Linda Smith: Thank you for having me here.

Poindexter: Oh, all the way from, from Baltimore. Linda is a, a trailblazer in the bedroom pop, uh, a pioneer of home recording, uh, a, uh, a founding mother. [Laughter] I dunno. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Anyway, but yes. And, and we’re so happy that you’re here. This is, is this the first time that you’ve played in California? Did I hear that correctly?

Linda Smith: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: This is great. So Linda will be playing tonight at the Four Star Theater, uh, along with the Linda Smith Band, who is, uh, Britta and Paul in this, in this incarnation. Um, and then tomorrow in Oakland, uh, at a house show.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, so let’s just right off the bat. Bedroom pop. Do you record in your bedroom?

Linda Smith: Yes.

Poindexter: It actually isn’t. It’s not the living room or the No?

Linda Smith: No, no. That’s the only place I can, um, [00:01:00] really have my, uh, equipment and my guitars and all that and, and I just keep it there and not have to take it down and, and that’s what I’ve always done.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: Had had that there. When I. Wherever I’ve lived. It was in the, it was in the bedroom.

Poindexter: [Laughter] Um, I wanted to ask, do you, did you play music when you were a kid? Were you a musical child?

Linda Smith: No. Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: No.

Linda Smith: I just listened.

Poindexter: Did you have a music, did you come from a musical family? Did you have any?

Linda Smith: No, no. No musical people?

Poindexter: No. So what in, what inspired you to start?

Linda Smith: Well, I’ll say it again. Uh, the Beatles on Ed Sullivan in 1964, and then later on seeing Patti Smith on Saturday Night Live in, I think it was 1975.

Poindexter: And then, so, you know, you’ve recorded, you’ve, uh, self recorded most of your music.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Your solo music. Um, how did you, how did you learn how to do that? Did you, were you self-taught?

Linda Smith: Basically. Um, what happened was, uh, uh, when I was living in New York and [00:02:00] playing in a band, um, the, their, these four track cassette re recorders came out and for, used by anybody and, um, the, the electronic stores up there had them. And, um, I was kind of curious about doing recording and making little demos for the band and things like that. And um, and it was so simple that I didn’t, I don’t even think I spent that much time with the manual that came with it. And it was exactly what I was looking for to do cause I didn’t really like to, to record in studios. We had done some of that and I always felt a little like, you know, people are listening, I’m gonna mess up. I’m gonna have to do it again. We’re spending money and, um, so this was what I could, I could do whatever I wanted in the timeframe I wanted to do it.

Poindexter: That’s, yeah, that’s perfect. You have total control.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, let’s see. So, [00:03:00] uh, did you, did you play your solo work live very much back in the, the early days?

Linda Smith: No, uh, once in a while, and usually if somebody asked me, I didn’t, I didn’t really go seeking out, uh, shows or anything. And, um, uh, there was a, a, when I moved back to Baltimore, there was a place called the 14 Carat Cabaret. And sometimes I would perform there and a friend ran that and, um, she often had bands and local people play, and then people, some people from outta town would come and play there.

And, uh, so I might put together a band or even just play with one other friend and, and do some songs. But, and as far as playing in clubs in Baltimore, I never, there were one or two that I played, uh, but it, it wasn’t a regular thing. It was very one time here, one time another year.

Poindexter: Do you, do you prefer, uh, recording at home, over uh, to playing live?

Linda Smith: Oh, yes. [00:04:00]

Poindexter: The right. Going back to the people are listening, uh, and [Laughter].

Linda Smith: Right. There’s a, there’s, you know, you people are watching and they’re listening.

Poindexter: Yeah. Not only listening, they’re watching too. Oh, even worse. [Laughter]

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm. And I never really felt comfortable with it. I’ve gotten more comfortable with it recently, but at the time I just thought, oh, what a chore. Why did I say I would do this? And, um.

Poindexter: You’re like, I could have been at home. What was I thinking? [Laughter]

Linda Smith: Yes, I could have been home.

Poindexter: Um, did, um, yeah, you mentioned that you didn’t really seek out live shows, but, um, as far as your releases go, you, you self-released a lot of your music, correct?

Linda Smith: Right. Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, did you, did you work to promote it or did you let it just kind of spread organically?

Linda Smith: Well, the, the original cassettes that I put out, those, uh, I sent to, to, uh, sort of alternative music magazines because they had cassette, um, reviews. Anybody could send a cassette in and have it reviewed by someone. And the, um, [00:05:00] the review might only be a paragraph, but you could get a sense that either somebody likes something or what they thought about it.

And a lot of people who were doing this, um, home recording, um, sent their cassettes in and some people would, would write people who read the magazine like Option or Op, it was called originally or Sound, I think it was called Sound Choice. Um, they did these kinds of things and, uh, so that anybody could get, get a review.

You didn’t have to be known or, and, um, so I start to, to, um, communicate with some of the other people who wanted to exchange cassettes or people who would write and send me a few dollars, and I would send them the cassette directly to their house.

Poindexter: Oh man. What a, what a time.

Linda Smith: Very different than now.

Poindexter: Yeah. Well, although now it’s in some ways, you know, it’s so easy. You can upload it online and anyone can just grab it.

Linda Smith: Yeah. [00:06:00] And there’s, you can put it on Bandcamp and not even have a, um, an actual record or anything to sell. Just put it up there and people can listen and they can buy the digital.

Poindexter: Yeah, has, has that. Um, I noticed you, you have put a, you know, a lot of your music up on Bandcamp. Um, did that inspire you to, now that you don’t have to like, actually make physical tapes or make, you know, did that inspire you to start creating again?

Linda Smith: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. I’ve been working on a few things at home and, um, and, uh, released an album with a friend in 2023 where we traded tracks back and forth, and then that was released on vinyl, um, version by, uh, Grapefruit Records, uh, it was called A Passing Cloud, and the friend was Nancy Andrews. And we had walked, worked together way back in the eighties in a, in a band. Uh, and we played in the basement of the house we lived in. And so we kind of reconnected to [00:07:00] the, during the pandemic and she started sending me tracks and I added some parts to it, like a little bass part or a keyboard part.

And then we decided to start collaborating on songs. And she would send me, um. Uh, lyrics or words that she found, stray, words that she found in pulp fiction novels. And, uh, so I would construct something and she would do something similar. So it was, it was, it was very much like we, we weren’t in the same room, and I really liked that process.

So, you know, there was. Uh, there was something fun about that, and I’ve never really worked like that before, so…

Poindexter: Yeah. Ah, the, the ma the, you know, marvels of modern technology that we can do that now.

Linda Smith: Yeah. A lot of people are doing that now. They’re, they’re making, uh, songs and things that way.

Poindexter: I know you can, you can be in a band with people and not even live on the same continent.

Linda Smith: Right. And sometimes you may, may, these people may never have actually met in person.

Poindexter: Right. And you mentioned Nancy is the band that you were [00:08:00] in together, is that Pinky?

Linda Smith: That was Pinky.

Poindexter: Right. And then we have that seven inch, um, we will play something from it in a bit. Um, but we do have something queued up. You did. I had, I asked if you wanted to pick out a few, a few songs, uh, from our library and, uh, one of the songs that you chose, uh, was by the Shangri-Las.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, tell me about the significance of this.

Linda Smith: Well, that’s one of those, you know, that’s one of those, uh, songs that I remember hearing on a transistor radio when I was eight or nine, and it made this such an impression. The, the opening piano, um, introduction and then the, the whole production of it and, um. I just, that was something that, you know, it’s like one of those things where you remember where you were when you heard it and I was probably sitting on the sofa in the living room and I had my transistor radio and I was like, oh my God, what is this?

And just as a child that that was. So that’s one of [00:09:00] those songs that stayed with me. Um, as far as like, this is the kind of thing I, I’d like to do someday and make something as atmospheric as this.

Poindexter: Yes. Atmospheric is…

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Definitely the word for it. Um, well, let’s hear it. This is Remember Walking In the Sand by the Shangri-Las…

All right. That was something from Pinky, that’s Linda Smith and Nancy Andrews. Um, who, we just heard have been collaborating again recently. Um, and what, what year was this from about, would you say?

Linda Smith: Um, it was sometime in the early nineties. 93 something. What does it say?

Poindexter: I have the answer.

Linda Smith: Yeah.

Poindexter: It’s in 1992.

Linda Smith: 92, okay.

Poindexter: Yeah. Yeah.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um. Yeah. And I was so, uh, I didn’t, I wasn’t sure that I would find that one in our library, but, um.

Linda Smith: I’m shocked.

Poindexter: Yeah, no, I was very, I was…

Linda Smith: Surprised, there it is.

Poindexter: I mean, the, the KALX library is, is vast and it’s a vast and magical place.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: It’s like Narnia in there. [00:10:00] Um, so yeah, I wasn’t that surprised. Uh, but yeah, so that was, uh, the song Coconut Cream. From, uh, four song seven inch by Pinky. And then, uh, before that, we heard from the Shangri-las, Remember Walking in the Sand, we were talking a little bit about the, um, the sound effects in there, the, you know, the sounds of the, the waves and the seagulls. And, um, you mentioned that you kind of, you like to incorporate that kind of thing in.

Linda Smith: Yeah, I mean sometimes it, it might seem kind of obvious or, um… but the reason I do it is because that’s what I grew up hearing, that kind of thing. It’s like, oh, you’re doing a song about a beach. Let’s put some wave sounds in, some, um, seagulls or whatever. And, um, a couple of things. I’ve, I’ve done something like that with, and got something from a, um, uh, sound effects CD or a tape and threw it in there. And it may sound kind of, uh, expected, [00:11:00] but I mean, that’s what they did that a lot in the 60’s.

Poindexter: Yeah. You got to, you have to set the mood and…

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: You know? Um, did you ever go out and do field recordings for any of that?

Linda Smith: I never have. I’ve never done actual field recordings.

Poindexter: Keep it in the bedroom.

Linda Smith: Yes. Get it from somewhere else and throw it in there.

Poindexter: Yeah. Um. So, so yes, we were, this is from 1992, and then you did have some, you had some things in, uh, into the early 2000’s, even, uh, or late 90’s?

Linda Smith: 2001.

Poindexter: Yeah, 2001.

Linda Smith: That was the last CD I did.

Poindexter: Yeah.

Linda Smith: Put together and, um. Then I just kind of went off to something else and I, it wasn’t, uh, a deliberate decision. I just wanted to start painting and I went back to school and tried to finish a degree that I never finished in the 70’s, and then I went and did a graduate program and, um, I thought, I had, had no intention of ever doing this ever again.

Poindexter: Really?

Linda Smith: None whatsoever.

Poindexter: So you weren’t just playing for yourself during that time at all?

Linda Smith: No. [00:12:00] There was a, a band I was in, well, sort of a band, and we only played a couple times, but it was somebody else’s project and I really, and I played, um, guitar, just added some guitar ideas. I didn’t sing or write songs. It’s called the Window Shoppers. And we did, we did a self-produced CD and, but that’s the only thing that, where I, you know, just, I didn’t do any, any real, uh, songwriting.

Poindexter: Wow.

Linda Smith: During that time.

Poindexter: Yeah. I mean, sometimes you just have to, you know…

Linda Smith: Go away.

Poindexter: Yeah.

Linda Smith: Come back.

Poindexter: Exactly.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, so what, what did bring you back to it?

Linda Smith: Well, like I said, it was the, the, the, uh, I guess it was initially, uh, the time of the pandemic and I was starting to go through, um, I wasn’t working at the time, and, um. And I was going through some old cassettes in my, uh, in my drawer that I had all these old cassettes and of different projects and [00:13:00] things. And, um, there was a group that Nancy and I were in briefly called the Gertrudes. And, uh, we did some four track recordings. So I sent, I said, oh, she might like to hear this. And, um, it was kind of interesting. It was another friend. Um, and it kind of had this, uh, bizarre sound to it, and I, I had forgotten what it sounded like, and so I sent it to her and, and, um, and the other person who was in the band, and, uh, Nancy called me up and she says, “Where did you get that? What is that? You know, I, I heard there was something coming around.”

And, and I, you know, and, and so she started talking about doing recording again, and I had no knowledge of how to record digitally or anything. And I didn’t have any machine to use anymore, any tape machine and, or all the parts to use. And, um, so she kind of talked me into getting the, the, um, the [00:14:00] software to, to do this at home on a, on a, because she was using Pro Tools, but I didn’t really wanna get into anything very complicated. And, um, so I, I said, I think I can use Audacity. That’s, that’s easy enough for me. And, um, and it, and it worked for trading things back and forth digitally, you wouldn’t know one was from Pro Tools and the other one was from Audacity. So, but it, it, that was probably the project that really, um, got me back to sitting down and making music again.

Poindexter: Wow. Well, go Nancy. Thanks. [Laughter]

Linda Smith: I have, whoops. I have to give, I always have to give her credit for that because otherwise I probably wouldn’t have done it.

Poindexter: Yeah. Oh, well, we’re also glad you did. Um, so, so really the digital recording has just been in the last few years for you?

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm. Since . Uh, 2020.

Poindexter: Wow. Wow. How, how do you, um. How does it compare to the tape recording?

Linda Smith: [00:15:00] Uh, I like it better. There’s less wires and things and, and less plugging in and, um, unplugging and, um, I mean, there’s still some of that, but, but I, I find it much, um, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s similar in that you can kind of be intuitive with it, like you could with a, a tape machine, but you can go in and you can copy and paste. You can take stuff out and put another section in and which I, it was really hard to do with a tape machine.

Poindexter: Yeah. Yes. A little more involved.

Linda Smith: To change, to change, do things like that. I didn’t have the skill to, to cut tape and then put another piece of tape in. Like they used to do.

Poindexter: Yeah. Are, is there anything that you think, um. That you prefer about tape recording over digital?

Linda Smith: Well, I was thinking about it and, um, I can’t think of anything. I mean, really… [Laughter]

Poindexter: No. Good riddance.

Linda Smith: I mean, I, you know, I wasn’t, when I was using a four track, I wasn’t using it because I [00:16:00] liked the lo-fi sound. I used it because that’s what we had.

Poindexter: Right.

Linda Smith: That’s all. I, I wasn’t trying to be lo-fi. That’s, that’s what there was.

Poindexter: Yeah. It is funny now that we have all of this, you know, there’s people, I think there’s a lot of us that probably prefer that sound.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, but I think for folks who were, you know, there, there when it was the only thing, they’re like, why, why would you want that?

Linda Smith: Why do you wanna get and be lo-fi?

Poindexter: Do want take this? Yeah.

Linda Smith: Well, now you can, you can, you know, you can get plugins in these programs that, that’ll say lo-fi keyboard, lo-fi guitar [Laughter] and…

Poindexter: Adds in the tape hiss for you.

Linda Smith: Uhhuh, it has tape, [Laughter] hiss in it, everything. It’s very strange.

Poindexter: Yeah. Yeah. Um. So it, so yeah. Since you had this long break, um, had, did you find that your songwriting had evolved in, in certain ways since you have returned to it?

Linda Smith: Well, um, uh, I guess in a way it still, it was still pretty simple. I mean, I did an album [00:17:00] of, at around the same time of instrumental music and, um, because, and I wasn’t writing any lyrics, but I used some, some sound samples and some um, uh, prerecorded, uh, narrative and things like that were, but there was no, I didn’t do any real songwriting for it. It was, but it was, it was very similar to the way I used to work, where I put one track down, add another track, put another track, add another track, and build something up from a lot of little pieces.

Poindexter: That’s great. Just fell right back into it. That’s, that’s wonderful.

Linda Smith: Yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting to do that again.

Poindexter: Yeah. Okay. Well, I have, um, I have something queued up from, uh, the band you’re going, who’s playing with you tonight? I think this April Magazine is…

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: The show.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Is playing with you tonight. Um, so let’s hear something from them and then we’ll maybe hear another one of yours.

Linda Smith: Good.

Poindexter: All right. This is April Magazine, right here on KALX Berkeley. [00:18:00] I’m here with Linda Smith live in the studio.

[Music]

That’s something by Linda Smith, A Crumb of Your Affection. Uh, which, uh, is, is on the reissue.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Although we do not, we played it off of the original.

Linda Smith: Oh.

Poindexter: Um, yeah. Uh, ooh. Yeah, because there’s…

Linda Smith: That’s great.

Poindexter: Um, let’s see. And uh, April Magazine was ahead of that local music, the song Love, uh, who will be opening for Linda Smith tonight at the Four Star Theater. We should also mention there is, uh, a house show tomorrow. 2125 13th Avenue in Oakland. Um, and Linda will be playing with Sad Eyed Beatniks.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Yes. Wonderful. And, um, let’s talk about how these live shows came together ’cause we have, um, the, the Linda Smith band, uh, is, uh, Paul and Britta for [00:19:00] this, at least this leg.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Has, uh, have there been other people involved as well?

Linda Smith: In Baltimore, uh, recently I played with another member of Smashing Times, um, named Blake Douglas and he’ll play guitar and keyboards also. And, um, but originally when, when I played, um, a little tour in Baltimore, Britta and Paul played with me because they, they only, they were the, they wanted to take up the challenge. [Laughter]

Poindexter: Yeah. [Laughter] So how did, how did, how did you guys all meet? How did this come about?

Linda Smith: Well, you know, I had I to go back to like the spring of, of 2023. I was invited by, um, Kati Mashikian, I’m, I’m sure how you pronounce her last name, but she’s in April Magazine.

Poindexter: Oh, yes, yes.

Linda Smith: She came to Baltimore and was playing with the Red, Pinks and Purples, and she, um, texted me, I guess, uh, we [00:20:00] followed each other on Instagram and said, uh, do you want to, to, to come down and see us play? I’ll give you, you know, comp and at the Ottobar, which is not that far from where I lived. And I thought, I, you know, I never go to bars and listen to music anymore, but it’s free. Let’s go. And I, I was not familiar with that band. I think I’d heard of them, but I never really listened to them. I didn’t know anything about it and I didn’t. And then when I went down there, um. Uh, once they finished playing, she came over and she said, there’s this whole scene out in San Francisco area, um, that listens to your mus, music. So I was kind of like, oh, that’s interesting. Very interesting. And, um, why? She said, why don’t you come out and do a tour and we can get you some shows?

And, and then shortly after that, I guess it was, uh, af through the summer, um, somehow I got, I got, uh, a message from, I, I forget who asked [00:21:00] me, was it Jas in Smashing Times sent me a, I can’t remember. Anyway, I have to look through my, somebody Instagrams and asked me to play with Smashing Times at, uh, wine bar. Uh, in Baltimore, small place that does performances. And, um, so I asked my friend Paul Baroody, who I played with in the past, he plays keyboards and, uh, said, do you wanna do this? Let’s, you know, it might be fun, but I, I’d never met any of them. I might have heard some of the music before. I’m not, I can’t. It’s like, I can’t recall.

And so we went down there and did that. And um, and that was fun. It was fun meeting all of them. And, um. And then I guess some more time passed. Oh, I guess. And, and then in April, uh, um, Jas from Smashing Times said, do you wanna come and do a tour with us? A little East Coast tour? And I said, I don’t know. I don’t have anybody to [00:22:00] play with.

I can’t, you know, I can’t, Paul, Paul Baroody can’t come with me on these, to go to Philadelphia to go to New York. He’s, he works, he’s busy working and, um. So I thought, oh, maybe I could play by myself. Maybe I could get some, um, some backing tracks and just play to that. So it kind of evolved that, um, uh, Paul who plays drums for Smashing Times, was willing to learn some of the songs and play. And then, and then eventually Britta got involved and said, sure, I’ll play some, I’ll play bass guitar or keyboard, whatever. And we had never played together before, you know, I hardly knew them except where I had met them in, you know, in previous September.

And I thought, well, that’ll be good. That’ll be fun, you know, that will be interesting. And, um, and we hardly had any practice time before we did the first show at, at, um. That we played, uh, down in, in Washington, D.C. [00:23:00] place called Rhizome. Little, little space, and, um. And I was just like, well, we’re going with it.

We’re going to see what happens. And, and it was, it’s a very much something that just evolved out of, um, necessity and, um, them willing to, to, uh, be helpful and play with me.

Poindexter: Yeah.

Linda Smith: I, you know, it’s not something I expected.

Poindexter: Luring you out of, uh, out of the bedroom to… [Laughter]

Linda Smith: To play in these places.

Poindexter: And I mean, that’s, yeah. That’s wonderful. So before, before they all got in touch with you, were you keeping up with the local music scene in Baltimore? Were you following, um, new music very much?

Linda Smith: Not locally, no. Not much. I mean, I, there, there were, you know, there are old friends there who play music, who I was aware of what they were doing. But um, as far as younger bands, newer bands, um. I didn’t really know much. I didn’t go out and listen to live music, um, at all.

Poindexter: But, yeah, come to find out, there’s a whole, a whole [00:24:00] music scene who was very inspired by you. Was that surprising? Or were, or?

Linda Smith: Yes.

Poindexter: Yeah. [Laughter] Yeah. No, it’s, it’s wonderful. It’s like…

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, so it’s, so yeah, kind of around. Is, this is maybe a little, even a little bit earlier. Um, in 2021, Captured Tracks Records released a retrospective of your work, it’s called Till Another Time. Um, and now they’ve also reissued, uh, Nothing Else Matters and I So Liked Spring.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, how did, how did that come about? Were they longtime fans and did they contact you or did they come across your music? Um, sort of, uh.

Linda Smith: Well, that was another evolving situation where…

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: I had originally in 2011, I, you know, I was, again, going through my, my drawer of old tapes and I, and I hadn’t done music in a while and nobody, I didn’t know anybody even remembered it, and I thought, well, I’ll put this up on a free website. So I made [00:25:00] MP3s of most everything I had and I put it up on a free website where you could just come and listen to it and somehow people started to, to hear it, listen to that. And there was a guy named, uh, Matthew Gray. I think he lives out here, maybe Los Angeles. And, he wrote to me and he said, I’d love to do a, a cassette compilation of some of your music.

And that was in 2014, I think. And I said, sure. And I sent him the tracks and he, he did the, the, uh, the cover for the cassette and, um, put all the tracks together and distributed it from his small label. And from there he said, oh, you know, I’d really, I’d really like, I really think another label could really do a nice.

Poindexter: Get out a bigger reach, you know? Yeah.

Linda Smith: With, with vinyl perhaps. ’cause he wasn’t, he couldn’t, he didn’t do vinyl. And um, so he contacted all these [00:26:00] small labels that he knew, um, that I’d never heard of.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: And there were a couple that he said, well this one’s interested and this one’s interested, and then there’s this one. And so I looked at their website and, um, considered a couple of them and I thought Captured Tracks seemed to be the most together. And, um, they had an actual, and they have an actual staff and, and they do all different, have different departments. And, um, so he hooked me up with them and, um, it turns out that the guy who runs that label knew my music and he immediately said, oh yeah, we’ll do this.

Poindexter: Oh, wonderful.

Linda Smith: So it was, it was just one of those things that, because they do release new music by new bands, but they also do reissues and, uh, archival stuff, and…

Poindexter: Yeah. And I think sonic, I mean, it’s, it’s a good fit. I think that their, their sound and, and their kind, you know.

Linda Smith: It seemed to work out really well.

Poindexter: Yeah. Yeah. It works, it does work out well.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, well, I think, [00:27:00] uh, you know, I, we had, I think we had queued up a song, one song that you picked, but then we were talking about the Smashing Times so much, and I kind of forgot that I had, uh, we do have a, um, track from their upcoming album. Maybe we should play that instead.

Linda Smith: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Okay. And do a real quick, quick setup there. Um, yeah. So they have an album coming out, I think in November.

Linda Smith: Yes. It’s November, right.

Poindexter: Um, and…

Linda Smith: It’s on K Records.

[Music]

Poindexter: All right. That was Trees with The Garden of Jane Delawney, uh, a pick by Linda Smith, who’s here in the studio with me. This is KALX Berkeley, 90.7 fm by the way. Uh, and I do have Linda Smith, uh, live on the air with me. Uh, we heard from the Smashing Times before that Ben Jimeny, the Green Grocer. Um. Tell me a little bit about that Trees track. That was the only, you sent me a list of, um, of music [00:28:00] pics. That was the one I was not familiar with, and I heard it and I was like, oh my God, this is.

Linda Smith: It’s something, isn’t it?

Poindexter: It’s beautiful.

Linda Smith: Yeah. I’m surprised that the, the original song isn’t as well known. I heard it, or the song originally done by Françoise Hardy, um, the, the French singer and, um. And she recorded hers not too long after the original was recorded. And, um, hers is more, uh, produced, um, you know, uh, French pop sounding.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: And I loved the song as she did it. And, and then, uh, I read that it was a song by this group called Trees who I’d never heard of and looked that up online. It was on YouTube and, um. You can hear, you know, the same melody in words, but it’s a very different approach to it.

Poindexter: Yeah. Oh, now I, well, I’ll have to look up the Françoise Hardy version.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Because I love her too. Um, and then you mentioned you were, you’re putting together a cover of this as [00:29:00] well?

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Yeah.

Linda Smith: Yes. I was thinking, doesn’t make a great song to cover. And maybe those people that are in Smashing Times would like to participate. [Laughter]

Poindexter: I mean, yeah, it’s like a, a gentle English folk song. I think they might like that.

Linda Smith: Yeah. So they’re very, very…

Poindexter: It seems up their alley

Linda Smith: Into that sort of thing. So, and that’s, you know?

Poindexter: They are the English countryside personified.

Linda Smith: Yes. Uhhuh. [Laughter]

Poindexter: Yes. [Laughter]

Um, well, uh, let’s see. What, what else could we cover? Um, yeah. Oh, so, um. Uh, yeah, just thinking about the, um, the Captured Tracks reissue again.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, were you, so yeah. Were you very involved in picking out what songs were gonna go on there or did you just give them free reign?

Linda Smith: I let, I let, uh, the head of the label make the choices and, um.

It took a little while to get the, uh, the list [00:30:00] because I was gonna have to supply ’em with all the original, um, wave, wave tracks and, um. So I’d write every few months and I’d say, oh, have you made a decision about what you wanna put on this? And then the pandemic happened and I said, pandemics happen. I don’t have anything to do. I can get those tracks to you. And so finally I got a list of the, of the tracks he wanted, and um, I probably would’ve picked different ones. Um. And originally it was originally the idea was to have a two, two album, two record set, but they decided to do one and um, I guess leave things for later release. Uh uh, perhaps. And um, but I thought it was a, it was, it was a nice selection. People seemed to like that.

Poindexter: Yeah, I think so. And so since that has come out, do you, does it feel like that is, there’s been this resurgence in, you know, people reaching out to you or, or interest in [00:31:00] your work?

Linda Smith: It definitely had, um, an impact, uh, because that was, that was distributed in places that I could never, distribute my, my music and, and vinyl had become very popular again. So, um, people, people wanted things like that on vinyl. They wanted to have, uh, a lot of that stuff was never on vinyl, or, or it might have been on a, uh, a seven inch.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: Back in, in the day. But I’d never had a, a 12 inch vinyl.

Poindexter: Wow.

Linda Smith: Collection or album of any kind. And so that was part of my, my desire to, to be, to participate is I thought, oh, it’d be great to have this 12 inch vinyl and, ’cause I was a big vinyl collector back in, in the 80’s and, uh, in the 90’s and until CDs came in and you did it sort of dried up new releases on vinyl.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: But, um.

Poindexter: They’re back though.

Linda Smith: I know [Laughter]. [00:32:00] It’s all back again. And I never thought it was gonna happen, but, so there was, there was that, and there was this, um, I think it was people, people buying things because it was on vinyl.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: And they may not have heard known what they were gonna hear, but they said, oh, this looks interesting.

Poindexter: Well, that is the benefit of having yeah, a label that’s a curator. You know, people trust their, their taste and. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s great to have that.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um, so now, uh, yeah, what are your plans for future releases? You mentioned that cover, so does that mean that you’re, you’re recording with, um, your, your backing band now and?

Linda Smith: Well, for that cover, I don’t know, you know, what, what might occur in the future as far as recording with, with, uh, the backing band, um, because they’re very busy.

Poindexter: I know. Yeah. I mean, they’re each in like 10 bands, right?

Linda Smith: Yeah. A lot of them are in many bands. And, um, and so, you [00:33:00] know, it’s, it, it’s another, it’s another thing of, um, I can sit down and, and, and record at home too, and maybe put the basics down and maybe. One someone else could put a part on there at, you know, at their convenience. And, but I’ve started to record some, some stuff that’s song based and, um, using keyboard and electronic, um, ways of making chord progressions. And so, and not so much using the guitar as a songwriting tool and I find that kind of interesting ’cause I, it makes me think a little bit differently ’cause I can play chords on a different kinds of chords on a keyboard than I, than I can play on a guitar. I don’t really, can’t play a whole lot of, uh, uh, you know, um, interesting. It’s interesting or odd chords it.

Poindexter: Mm-hmm.

Linda Smith: And so that’s what I’m kind of trying to [00:34:00] follow that at this point and see where that, that takes me and writing some lyrics to go with it and, um, maybe put out a cassette of it.

Poindexter: All right. Wow.

Linda Smith: We’ll go back to cassettes.

Poindexter: Yeah. Do it. Those are also making a comeback.

Linda Smith: Yeah. They’re, there are, people are buying cassettes.

Poindexter: Yeah. Well, I’m, I’m so happy to hear that this resurgence has, you know, kept inspiring you and, uh, you know, that you’re still finding new ways and, uh, still finding inspiration and, you know, making new music is wonderful.

Linda Smith: I’m too. Yeah. That’s nice.

Poindexter: Well, thank you so much for, for coming and, uh, everyone. Linda Smith, uh, right here on KALX Berkeley, uh, will be playing at the Four Star Theater tonight in San Francisco. Such a beautiful space. Um, I’m very excited. I’ll be there. And then tomorrow in Oakland, uh, at a house show 25, uh, 2125 13th Avenue. All of this information is on the internet as [00:35:00] well.

Linda Smith: Mm-hmm.

Poindexter: Um. I am gonna, I’m, I’m gonna end us here with another one of your tracks. Uh, this one, it was like, this one was on the Slumberland, um, seven inch I think, was this the? Yes. Uh, local, local label. Um, so yeah, this is the song In This. Linda, thank you so much.

Linda Smith: Thank you, uh huh.

Poindexter: For coming.

Linda Smith: Thank you.

Poindexter: Um, and this is KALX Berkeley, Linda Smith.

Below is the transcript of the above interview, which originally aired on March 31st, 2025.

Ears of Maize:  All righty. Good afternoon KALX listeners. I’m Ears of Maze. It’s 4:30. What we just heard there was April Sonata taken from Adrian Younge Presents Something About April II. And in front of me, I have Adrian Younge and the band. 

Adrian Younge: What’s up man? 

Ears of Maize: Thank you and welcome to Berkeley. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. Thank you. It feels good to be here. And it’s interesting listening to that song. I’m with the band and we’re like, “Damn, we haven’t heard that song in a long time.” [Chuckles.] So thank you for playing that and showing us some old music. 

Ears of Maize: Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, welcome to Berkeley and you guys are here touring as part of– 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. 

Ears of Maize: –Something about April. 

Adrian Younge: Uh, exactly. 

Ears of Maize: Part three. 

Adrian Younge: Exactly. So basically we’re touring the trilogy. So Something About April I came out in 2011. Part two, of which you just played a song, came out in 2015, and in April – on April 18th – part three comes out, Something about April III. So I got my crew here. We’re playing the music, Something About April and, and more upcoming and older stuff that I have in my catalog. 

Ears of Maize: Fantastic. Um, do you want to introduce the band or sort of, I’d love to speak, speak to how you’ve assembled yourselves?

Adrian Younge: I would love to. Yeah. So on my right there’s uh, Loren Oden and he is a vocalist that you pretty much hear on most of my music since Black Dynamite, which was released in 2009. And then next to him, you have Jack Waterson, who is primarily the guitarist, but has played drums and they both have albums on Linear Labs. Like I’m pretty sure you guys have played their music here. Then we have Alicia Camiña, who is an incredible, ridiculous tenor saxophone player. We also have Tylana Enimoto, who is an insane violin player. And we also have Marcelo Buga– Buga– Bugater, who is the backbone– [He seems to to stutter intentionally – someone chuckles in the background] who kills it on stage with the drums. And um, yeah. So we’re here. The rest are in the hotel, but we wanted to come and say hello to you guys as you support us, and we really, really, really appreciate it. 

Ears of Maize: Fantastic. And again, welcome to Berkeley and the East Bay. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. 

Ears of Maize: Are these all folks that you’ve played with in sort of studio sessions or it’s– you’ve assembled this band just to travel– 

Adrian Younge: For both.

Ears of Maize: Okay. 

Adrian Younge: It’s both. Yeah, it’s both. So it’s, it’s all of that, like, it’s interesting because when you– if you dive into the catalog, especially Something About April, there’s just– in order to play the music, there’s just a lot you have to know about where the music comes from. So I’ve always been very particular with who I actually choose to play with, because I always say I record music in order to perform it live and in order to give it life. So, uh, we were very calculated in choosing people to hang out. First of all, you won’t sound good if you don’t know how to go shopping at vintage stores. I dunno why, but that’s just, it’s just what it is. [Laughing. Others join in.] So I had to pick people that love vintage, but then beyond that, on a more serious note, um, like everything is analog, right? So you can’t– we can’t travel and you’re bringing your iPod– iPad to plug into a DI to play– It’s just not the music, not the sound. So it’s just like-minded people, uh, and they bring the music to life. And that’s what– that’s what it is. Like having people that are better than you around you, you know? Uh, to really create an experience and, and we’re looking forward to creating an experience at our show tomorrow. 

Ears of Maize: Hell yeah. And to plug it one more time, Tuesday, April 1st, tomorrow night, uh, happening at Cornerstone. 

Adrian Younge: Yes. 

Ears of Maize: Um, looking forward to everyone being out at that. Um, can you kind of introduce where, um, Something About April III sort of falls within this trilogy?

Adrian Younge: Absolutely, absolutely. So. I’ll just kind of go back to kind of tell the story. Um, I started making beats, sampling records in ‘96 and I soon realized that the music I really wanted to make was the music that was inspiring me from these records that sound, that composition, not the derivative sample beats I was making. So I took the time to start teaching myself how to play different instruments and started figuring things out and, um, basically my journey took me to wanting to be the next, like, Ennio Morricone meets RZA meets Curtis Mayfield meets like a King Crimson or whatever. And Something About April, the first album, represents the work that I put in studying records and trying to become one of these musicians in order to create one album that represented my DJ crate. So when you listen to Something About April, it has all those elements in there. Then that kind of style of music, where it’s from, what I call the breaks perspective, is kind of like you’re listening to the kind of music, uh, a hip hop producer would want a sample had they found these records from back in the day. Using that perspective to create full compositions is essentially Something About April is. Um, and then did part one. When it came out, people loved it, but it really blew up after the Jay-Z samples and, uh, other people started sampling it. Then that led into us doing a lot of different albums, uh, and then we did Something About April II and then a lot of other albums. And now, uh, Something About April III, you know, so there’s a lot to the world, but essentially there’s Something About April world is– it’s basically a trilogy of records. It’s a world in and of itself where you like prog rock as much as you like hip hop, as much as you like jazz, as much as you like cinematic soul. Like that’s what it is. So it’s kind of like a strange world for strange people to enter. 

Ears of Maize: Hell yeah. Well, it’s, it’s welcome company here with, with–

Adrian Younge: Thank you. 

Ears of Maize: –Our DJs and our listeners. Thank you for that. In looking at some of– sort of not only your recent discography, but also looking at, um, the tour dates on this current tour, I see that Brazil is a piece that continues to show itself.

Adrian Younge: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Ears of Maize: Can you sort of speak to that influence and how it finds itself on this record or with the tour and–?

Adrian Younge: Absolutely, absolutely. So you’re basically saying, could you answer the question I asked you to answer? [Ears of Maize laughs.] So I will answer that now. Um, basically, so Something About April III is very much inspired by the trips that we’ve been taking to Brazil since 2019. Um, essentially, my group along with Ali Shaheed Muhammad, called the Midnight Hour, had a show out there in 2019 and we were there also and we performed and it was just– it was just a culture shock because, ’cause I just fell absolutely in love with the culture. I mean, on that trip we met Marcos Valle, so much other iconic Brazilians, and we just– it was just like– there’s some past life, something happening over here. I’m not speaking their language, but spiritually we are connecting. It’s crazy. We’re performing and we’re seeing people singing the words to our music and all that stuff. It was just like, yo, seriously? And then digging deep into the crates, and then discovered for the first time in my life that there was another region in the world that had a well of music as deep as ours here in the US. So I just started going deeper and deeper and deeper, and I just– again, started becoming more connected to the culture. Um, I started taking Portuguese lessons. Um, I started meeting more iconic musicians from the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s. And then with our record label, uh, concert promotion company slash institution Jazz Is Dead, we started creating a myriad of albums with these people, um, and– in a weird way, I felt like I just started to become Brazilian in a weird way. Like, like, it’s like I’m a gringo saying that, right? Like I’m becoming Brazilian. But it was something that I actually really felt. So with doing Jazz Is Dead, we did albums with, uh, Brazilian icons like Marcos Valle, João Donato, Azymuth. Um, we have an upcoming album with Hyldon, upcoming album with Carlos Dafé upcoming album with Joyce Moreno e Tutty Moreno. Uh, there’s still so many more Brazilians that we’ve worked with. And this is just in the last five years. So I wanted to end Something About April trilogy in a way that represented where I am right now. So that means that I wanted to make, uh, a Something About April style album, which would be like a psychedelic soul album that would have come out in like ‘69 or ‘70 that’s very soulful, yet psychedelic and I did the entire thing in Portuguese.

Ears of Maize: Wow. 

Adrian Younge: So like it’s a big risk for me to do an album like that as an American, but it’s– for me, it’s a big homage to a place that’s given so much great music to the world and hasn’t really received as much back. So that’s what this is, and it’s just been interesting to see that people are down with it.

Ears of Maize: Mmm. 

Adrian Younge: You know, just with the singles that we’ve been released and like, we’re performing stuff live and we’re seeing people bobbin’ their head, when in my head, they shouldn’t be, they should be confused, but they’re bobbin’ their head, it’s like, “Really? Are y’all down with this? Okay, let’s go.” So we are going, uh– April 30th is gonna be our first date in Brazil, in a place called Belo Horizonte. And then after that we’ll be in Sao Paulo performing, and we’re also bringing out some of the icons that I mentioned, and then after that, uh, we’re going to Curitiba in Brazil. So it’s, it’s like a real dream come true to be able to do something like this. 

Ears of Maize: That’s awesome. 

Adrian Younge: So that’s the connection there, yeah.

Ears of Maize: And um, again, to sort of bring that home, I saw that these look like– sort of the capstones to your current tour with, again, taking this music to Brazil. 

Adrian Younge: Exactly. 

Ears of Maize: And I even saw the notes, like you mentioned with special guests and even an expansion of your orchestra to upwards of 40 pieces, right? 

Adrian Younge: Exactly. Yes, exactly. So basically like, uh, a lot of this is essentially my– you know, as you create goals in life as an artist, you say, you know, one day I want to be this. You know, uh, when I was young, it was just like, “I wanna be able to do music and get a lot of girls.” Right? [Laughter.] And then, you know, you start taking music a bit more serious and, um, you start finding who you’re supposed to be creatively. And then you say, “Okay, I wanna make these kind of albums and get these kind of girls.” Right? [Laughing.] Then you, and then you become more mature and you just wanna focus more so on the music and just have those girls love your music, right? 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: And, um. What’s crazy about this journey is that I always say I went from the sampler to the symphony. Like, I was sampling records and didn’t know anything about music theory to the point now where I can, you know, use my musical point of view to create music that could be as grand as a Lalo Schifrin or whomever, uh, because I put the work in to actually learn how to play with the symphony. And so, like, that’s what these concerts are representing now, and these are kind of like the dreams come true. So in a strange way, it’s like, uh– the perspective is if you could have like a Pink Floyd on stage with, you know, Ennio Morricone conducting the orchestra or something, that’s essentially what we seek to bring to the audience. It’s that, uh, that in-your-face music that is still romantic and beautiful and touches people and when we perform, our aim is to make people cry, you know, to make people happy, uh, to move people and to inspire people to, uh, seek more outta music. Because just like this station, I think we’re like the antithesis of, uh, what everybody else thinks is cool. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: Like, we’re the arbiters of cool. 

Ears of Maize: Yeah. 

Adrian Younge: Like, that’s what we do, and that’s what these shows are representing. If you come to our shows– like, there ain’t gonna be no nerds in there. [Pauses.] Well, we’re nerds, so– 

Ears of Maize: Right. 

Adrian Younge: But we– well, what we call other people nerds, right? 

Ears of Maize: Yep. 

Adrian Younge: It is like, it’s just us quote cool people, you know, um, trying to express ourselves, and that’s what we all kind of appreciate. So that’s what this tour is. 

Ears of Maize: Right on. And I– personally, as a listener, have always found this cinematic thread– 

Adrian Younge: Yes. 

Ears of Maize: –Through the music that you make. 

Adrian Younge: Yes, yes, yes. 

Ears of Maize: And to sort of apply that to my own kind of evolution as a listener. 

Adrian Younge: Mm Hmm. 

Ears of Maize: As someone who appreciates this analog side of music and the authenticity and the handmade sort of–

Adrian Younge: Mm Hmm.

Ears of Maize: –Component of it all. 

Adrian Younge: Mm Hmm. 

Ears of Maize: Has music always had this tie-in to movies, film scores, the cinematic sort of edge to it? Or is that sort of a graduation to you? Or there was an aha moment? Again, in my own journey, I can think of, you sort of find the sound that you like, and then you seek out the players, and then for me it was this evolution to, like, doing the deep dive on labels. 

Adrian Younge: Mm Hmm. 

Ears of Maize: And from where this came– 

Adrian Younge: Mm Hmm. 

Ears of Maize: I’m curious how that relates to sort of the cinematic element– 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. 

Ears of Maize: Or that same journey for yourself or something much different. 

Adrian Younge: Well, two things. My theory is that everybody has what I call a core. Everybody has a core. So like, um, your core– my core is soundtrack music between ‘68 and ‘73, soulful soundtrack music. But it took me many different– listening to many different artists to get me close to my core. So if I’m listening to Wu-Tang, and then I’m listening to Curtis Mayfield, and then I’m listening to, uh, someone who sampled Curtis, it’s like all these things are leading me somewhere. And then when you find that thing that you lead, that, I mean– when you find that thing that is your core, then that’s kind of the music that was kind of made for you, right? So like, what’s happened for me personally is– all hip hop, ’cause hip hop is a bricolage of vinyl culture, all from– from all these different genres. So sampling all these genres and then me seeking out the records, led me to my core. And so when you’re hearing the music, you’re hearing, uh, how much I love old soundtrack music, because soundtrack music tells stories, but also what I think a lot of people don’t realize is that pop music and all other kinds of music are soundtrack music too. Because when you could listen to music and close your eyes and see a story and see something, it’s cinematic. So I always liken the– the example I use is, you know, the Delfonics La-La Means I Love You. Most people that are younger than me will hear that and think it’s like– hear it cinematically because it was in, uh, Jackie Brown. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.  

Adrian Younge: But they don’t know what it meant before that. You know what I’m saying? 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.  

Adrian Younge: So, so cinematic music is essentially something that gives you a picture, you know, with Stranger Things using all that– all those eighties joints, right?

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.  

Adrian Younge: Younger people hear that music differently now. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.  

Adrian Younge: That’s all cinematic music to them. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.  

Adrian Younge: You know, so. 

Ears of Maize: Wow. Okay. Um, I wanted to ask too: you know, you bring this tour here to Berkeley– 

Adrian Younge: Mm Hmm.  

Ears of Maize: Again, looking at the other tour dates that you have: Sao Paulo, New York, um– why pick Berkeley, in sort of the Bay Area market here? I know that the East Bay is obviously a hub for music of that era, but, um, how did Berkeley and we find a spot here on your tour when you were selecting dates? 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. Well. It doesn’t matter. 

Ears of Maize: [Chuckling.] Okay. 

Adrian Younge: We just wanna be here. 

Ears of Maize: Cool. 

Adrian Younge: We wanna find our audiences. 

Ears of Maize: Right on. 

Adrian Younge: You know, it could be like, “Why Nebraska?” Because there’s cats in Nebraska that love this music, so let’s go. You know? And plus, I mean, I’m born in San Francisco and also my connection, musically, to here is that, you know, we did the Souls of Mission album in 2013 and we’re West Coast, you know, we’re LA, so Bay is the other LA, or LA is the other Bay in a weird way, so this is still kind of home, you know? 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.  

Adrian Younge: And, and it’s not, you know, we don’t think: “Hey man, should we be going to Berkeley? Do they deserve us?” It’s like, no, we go to play for people that are willing to come and see us, you know? So if, you know, wherever somebody needs to feel our energy, you know, it’s, it’s an honor for us to be there, so that’s why we’re here, you know? 

Ears of Maize: Cool. I appreciate that.. Again, we collectively feel honored that, that y’all would choose to, to bring your music here to Berkeley. 

Adrian Younge: Dude, look man. I love it here. 

Ears of Maize: Cool. 

Adrian Younge: You know? 

Ears of Maize: Cool. Happy to have you. And again, I wanted to call out again the Souls of Mischief collab there.

Adrian Younge: Yes. 

Ears of Maize: And I also found it striking– I was listening to that record this past week and, um, the sort of segues– the skits that you do in that album– 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. 

Ears of Maize: –Where you call out 90.7 K-NOW. 

Adrian Younge: Yeah, yeah. 

Ears of Maize: It’s the same, um, station number here as 90.7 FM KALX Berkeley. 

Adrian Younge: [Amazed.] WOW! 

Ears of Maize: Dunno if that was on your radar or not, but–

Adrian Younge: [Chuckling in the background from band members.] Dang! See that’s– 

Ears of Maize: Deep cut. 

Adrian Younge: Well, well, yeah, because we were, we were telling this story– 

Ears of Maize: Yeah. 

Adrian Younge: About– wow, that’s craziness. And Ali Shaheed was the fake DJ for that. 

Ears of Maize: Yep.

Adrian Younge: But a lot of this correlates with– a lot of people don’t really know the radio history here, you know, and a lot of people don’t know how hip hop actually started coming to the radio. So that story is because in the Bay– the Bay helped to break hip hop on the radio. You know, there was a time when you would not hear hip hop on the radio. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: So that’s kind of part of what that story is, you know, like it was happening all here and it was happening with KDAY in LA. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: At the same kind of time, you know, when programmers were saying, well, we need to make money, and advertisers don’t wanna pay for this. But then people didn’t realize that a lot of these young white kids wanted to listen to hip hop. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: You know, and it was just like, “Oh, well, okay, fine. We’ll do it.” And then once it all started happening, uh, like from The Chronic to, you know, all that stuff, like that time from ‘91 to ‘93, all that stuff is the first time we started hearing hip hop become pop music. And then the radio started– they said, “Okay–” Because a lot of radio stations, even out here, were trying to push a lot more of the freestyle stuff and all that, which I love, but the kids wanted the hip hop, and that’s a lot about what that story’s talking about.

Ears of Maize: Cool. The other piece for me too, in sort of doing some, I don’t know, some listening and prep for knowing that we’d have a conversation today, I found a lot of the music that I was listening to, kind of in the spirit of the music that you make– what I was listening to this past week, a lot of it was coming out of Fantasy Studios.

Adrian Younge: Oh! 

Ears of Maize: That’s, again, based here in Berkeley. 

Adrian Younge: Oh, yes. 

Ears of Maize: So there’s also a jazz edge, too– 

Adrian Younge: Yes. 

Ears of Maize: –To sort of the Berkeley scene, the East Bay. 

Adrian Younge: Yes, absolutely.

Ears of Maize: And I find it all sort of complementary to what you’re doing, what we’re talking about here. 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. 

Ears of Maize: On both the hip hop influence–

Adrian Younge: Yes. 

Ears of Maize: –As well as sort of the Staples jazz scene.

Adrian Younge: The thing is, the reason why I love– first of all, my favorite music was made before I was born. First of all. 

Ears of Maize: Same. 

Adrian Younge: So, like, the thing is that it’s not as though that music is just better than other music. It’s just that there’s people like us that need music that is more cultivated, right? We need to hear more of a connection to culture in the music. There needs to be, uh, more thought put into the music. So what’s great about a lot of stuff on Fantasy, a lot of stuff on Blue Note all the time, um, and other commensurate labels is that you hear where hip hop was coming from. It’s kind of like–  as a DJ, you know, like when I would always play DJ sets, I wouldn’t even play a hip hop song. It’s all that stuff because it’s– it’s hip hop squared, hip hop mastered the drums, it never matched the composition. This is stuff where you’re getting the drums and the composition. So like when I listen to those records and, in having a record store for so many years, when you show that music to younger people, they’re very open to hearing it because they don’t know that this exists. And again, it helps these younger people get to their “core” when you could disseminate this music just like you guys have been doing for, you know, decades, you know what I’m saying? So, um, we’re all on a musical journey and none of us knows everything and each generation of DJ needs to pass on what they know to the next generation, because stuff that might be simple to us is brand new for that next generation. It’s like, oh, you know, “Oh my God.” You know, a perfect example of this is when you think about the evolution of hip hop, let’s just say from, uh, let’s just say from like ‘87 to to ‘93, ‘94. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: Because of all the hip hop drum break records, like Ultimate Breaks & Beats and all that stuff, you had an amalgamation of just parts of records that was provided to producers all over the world to make things from, but there’s– they’re all kind of cookie cutter, but in doing this quote, cookie cutter thing, you’re hearing various, various, various perspectives on musics from around the world. And hip hop is the only genre that did that. No other genre said, “Let’s be open to everything else from around the world,” you know, so, like, we’ve learned so much from listening to these old records, and keeping these records in a cycle of, of renewing themselves with sampling. And in doing so, it’s the first genre, especially Black genre of music, that didn’t forget the past. 

Ears of Maize: Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: And, and what this means is that– and I think this epitomizes what our Jazz Is Dead movement is. It’s like it shows you that we can still listen to and create with icons of the past. And going back to this, not to go off on a tangent too much, but Black culture is one of the only cultures who, like, just forget about their past and it’s onto the next, onto the next, onto the next. But we have so much great music here, um, you know, young white kids still know about Led Zeppelin and the Beatles, you know what I’m saying? But like, how many young Black kids know about the Isley Brothers and Curtis Mayfield? Like– we always forget about our past, but if someone samples it, they’re hot for a little bit at least. So, at least sampling has connected us back, you know? 

Ears of Maize: Yeah. You know, on that same thread, um, who do you find as sort of the audience for– especially the Jazz Is Dead series? Is it building a bridge between sort of the old cats and the heads and sort of the new folks that find these artists in the music through sort of the hip hop connection? Is it a brand new audience? Where does that territory take you? 

Adrian Younge: So it’s interesting. So for those of you that don’t know, so we have literally 23 albums out right now on Jazz Is Dead. And, um, what, what we’ve done– myself, uh, [and] Ali Shaheed Muhammad, is that we’ve recorded new albums with iconic, iconic musicians from the past and present. So you know, from Gary Bartz to Doug Carn, to Marcos Valle, to Brian Jackson, to Roy Ayers, who recently passed. Like, there’s all these people that we looked at their catalog and said, “What can we do to continue those conversations and make new music where we’re not just rehashing the past?” So we went into my studio, my Linear Lab Studio that’s all analog, and recorded things with the same kind of instruments for tomorrow. And, in doing this, I thought it was just gonna be like, okay, you know, older people are gonna be like, “Oh man, this is dope.” But I didn’t think that younger people would be into it as much. But what has been insane is that the crowd is so young.

Ears of Maize: Mmm.

Adrian Younge: And older, but it’s so young. When we have our concerts with Arthur Verocai, to Cortex, to Hermeto Pascoal– like, to see that many young people coming out is a real surprise. And then I started thinking about, well, why is this? And then, going back to this notion of hip hop sampling the past to making it new to new audiences like it did for us, um, like we would have Tyler, The Creator at our shows or Action Bronson, and there’s just some of these younger, you know, alchemists, some of these dudes that are in tune with the younger audience sampling a lot of these artists and they’re coming out. Then younger people are seeing them coming out, so they’re like, “Okay, I must be here.” But then some of the stuff that like a Tyler, The Creator sampled, now the younger people are researching, so “Oh, Cortex.” “Oh yeah, Cortex, they’re great. I know them.” 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: And then they come to the concert. So it’s like younger generations are finding a new kind of way to be cooler than their friends by going to events that are a bit more cultivated.

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.

Adrian Younge: And this also connects to what I feel is not their parents, but their grandparents. You see what I’m saying? 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.

Adrian Younge: And then the parents are in the middle, trying to figure out where their coolness is. You know?

Ears of Maize: Uh huh–

Adrian Younge: Because– and a lot of times it’s across the board, it’s like we’ve had many events where it’s the kid, the parent, the grandparent, and they’re all singing the words and doing their thing, you know? So it’s like it’s evolved into something where it’s a movement of people that just are searching for more ’cause that’s what we’re doing. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.

Adrian Younge: We’re just searching for more and we’re also trying to give flowers to these artists while they’re alive. They’re not forgotten to us. And a lot of these artists don’t realize or didn’t realize how much we still listen to their music. You see what I’m saying? So like there’s a myriad of reasons as to why we do what we do at Jazz Is Dead and why the demographic is so wide. Um, but at the same time, it’s not like a super lucrative thing for us. It’s just [pauses] it makes us rich spiritually and it’s something that we love, something that we love to see. You know, even here, I’ve been here many times with Ebo Taylor. We have another tour with Ebo Taylor. He’s 90, we have an album out with him right now and he’s 90 years old and he’s killing, bro. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: So, like, seeing these artists shed tears in the studio or on stage because they never thought that they’d even have an audience this big, they never thought that, at this day and age, they could perform– 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.

Adrian Younge:  –And be who they’re supposed to be. It’s just a beautiful thing and it turned from something fun to just an absolute obligation that we have to the culture. And that’s what’s– just like you guys, you know, we’re obligated to do what we do.

Ears of Maize: Yeah, I appreciate that. I know, I mean, we’ve got the new Marshall Allen album out. He’s 100 years old and it’s one of our top plays at the moment as far as new music. 

Adrian Younge: That’s amazing. 

Ears of Maize: Um, and real quick, at, at the top of the hour, I wanna remind folks you’re listening to 90.7 FM KALX Berkeley. We are University of California and listener supported Freeform Community Radio. I’m Ears of Maze here, talking with Adrian Younge and the band here in Berkeley. Uh, getting ready for their show tomorrow night at Cornerstone. Just in sort of follow up to that, again, you’re talking about how, in the Jazz Is Dead series, these are all brand new compositions– 

Adrian Younge: Yes.

Ears of Maize:  –That you’re making in tandem, and in sort of the spirit of collaboration with these artists. 

Adrian Younge: Absolutely. 

Ears of Maize: In that sandbox that you create, in that space, are you finding that these artists come with sort of intentions of the music that they wanna make sort of in these later stages of their career as sort of where this new music sort of falls within their sort of discography or their legacy, or it’s all sort of magic that’s happened in the moment with, you know, once you get there and you find you sort of work in collaboration, or a combination thereof,or– how do you sort of describe who– where you go and what the intentions are from the–? 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. Well, one of the things for me as an avid record collector and DJ, like, I study music, and one of the things I’ve always studied is why do your greatest artists get whack? Like, what happens? What are the choices that they make where they’re just turned into straight musical garbage? [Ears of Maize chuckles.] How does this happen? And what I’ve found is that– I always say that for me as an artist, I live in this false reality and I wanna make this false reality my reality. So when I’m creating, I create for this false audience in my head, and I try to make them happy. And the more I could do that, the more I’m in tune with myself. But the second I start trying to make music for a different audience, I feel as though, when I try to come back, there’s not as much people there left that wanna listen to my music and this audience in my head– And if that’s true, that means I lose myself and a lot of these great artists, especially of that time, from my golden era (from like ‘68 to ‘73 ) lost themself because in ‘74, ‘75 is when disco’s really kicking in. And I love disco, but they weren’t making disco before that. And in order to maintain their lifestyle, in order to get those checks from the record labels, they had to start changing up their music. And this is a cyclical thing that happens throughout the decades. So what happens is that they start losing themself. What I’ve done in recording with these dudes is say, “Yo, come into the studio. When you walk in, you won’t see any computers. You are gonna see the same instruments that you were looking at when you were making the music of your quote prime. That’s what we wanna do here. We don’t wanna do the other stuff.” 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm. 

Adrian Younge: And so that’s known when you go into the studio. We’re making music for us and you’re using my ear and Ali Shaheed Muhammad’s ear to determine what we love about what you did. So, for example, rest in peace Roys Ayers, I don’t like everything he did.

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.

Adrian Younge: That’s just what it is, but he made some incredible music. So like, stuff like, you know, “My life my life my life my life in the sunshine” we wanna try to hit three of those, you know what I’m saying? But like for today, um, or some of his stuff from like the Coffy soundtrack or whatever, right? But there’s some stuff that– it’s not that it’s whack, it’s not what we necessarily needed today, so we’re not gonna try to continue those conversations. 

Ears of Maize: Sure.

Adrian Younge: So, that being said, if any artist came in and wanted to use Ableton to make something, there’s no way the tape even starts running. No, I don’t wanna do it. 

Ears of Maize: Mm Hmm.

Adrian Younge: I’m not interested in that. 

Ears of Maize: Yeah. 

Adrian Younge:  And we’ve never had a problem because they come in understanding how much we love them and how much we love their catalog. So like, they’re getting an opportunity that they won’t get, you know, in 2025. And that’s to record, to tape all analog where we are edifying what you’ve created, and we want to continue your conversations for the future into a new audience. And we have not had, like I said, not one problem. And it’s just been beautiful. 

Well, I wanna say it really comes through again as, as the audience to be able to find something new from, again, these masters, these greats, here, in modern day. It’s incredible. And again, it comes through with that purity and that love for the artist. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. I thank you for it. 

Ears of Maize: And something new. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. So– just one example with Loren here. Like what we did, our Lonnie Liston Smith album– um, it was just recording doing that with Lonnie and then him hearing Loren’s voice instead of his brother’s voice, on his– on our album, he was really blown away of how we took the spirit of what he was doing with Expansions and other music, with his brother singing, to now having Loren as a vocalist, and us, like, continuing that– his space funk, jazz funk for the future. It’s like these are special moments, you know? So that’s pretty much the point of view of all of it. 

Ears of Maize: Yeah. Awesome. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. 

Ears of Maize: Um, again, Adrian Younge and the band here, uh, tomorrow night, Tuesday, April 1st at Cornerstone here in Berkeley. Feel free to catch them. I want to thank you so much for the time. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. 

Ears of Maize: I wanna be respectful of your time and, and Annika’s time here too. 

Adrian Younge: Um, also one thing I do wanna say that tomorrow we will have vinyl and merchandise, jazzy jazz stuff and all that. But the album, Something About April III  is not gonna be released until April 18th. But we will have some copies that would, you know– if you want to cop ’em, we’ll sign ’em and thank you for coming and all that stuff. So bring a cool friend. A cool friend– [laughing] 

Ears of Maize: Cool friends only. 

Adrian Younge: Yeah. Cool friends only. Oh yeah. And, and, and, and please enjoy us all trying to share our energy together tomorrow night. 

Ears of Maize: Fantastic. Again, welcome again to Berkeley. 

Adrian Younge: Thank you. 

Ears of Maize: Thank you for being here. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your music and all that you share.

Adrian Younge: Thank you. 

Ears of Maize: Um, we’re gonna ride out here, uh, again with one more track from Something About April II. A fitting song for where we are. We’re gonna play the track Sitting By the Radio. 

Adrian Younge: Oh, and that’s Loren singing, that’s Loren singing. So, yeah. Cool. 

Ears of Maize: Fantastic. Again, here on your 90.7 FM KALX Berkeley, Ears of Maize handing things over to ec0fr3ak on your KALX.

 

 

 Good Juju: You are tuned into KALX Berkeley, your mighty University of California and listener supported freeform community radio. Thanks so much to In Your Orbit for bringing us to the top of the hour. I am Good Juju and I am invading Frontal Lobe’s show for a very good reason. I am here with me, live at the station, a very, very, very special guest. Rogê is one of Brazil’s most exciting singer songwriters of our age. Latin Grammy nominee, “Prince of Lapa,” his latest album, Curyman II, is Rogê’s highly anticipated album out of Diamond West Records that honors the roots of Brazilian music while pushing its boundaries. Rogê is performing tonight, that’s right, tonight, February 22nd at Ashkenaz, and he’s here right now talking to us at KALX ahead of his show. Rogê, thank you so much for being here. 

Rogê: [Inaudible]…me, and my pleasure to be here at KALX.  Hi people, hi everybody. So, I’m happy to be here. 

Good Juju: Yeah, I mean, it’s– uh, thank you. I just heard that you drove early this morning. You woke up at 5 AM and now you’re here. So I feel so grateful that you’re talking to us here in KALX. 

Rogê: Yes, but, you know, that’s it. [Laughing.] It is what it is. I have to wake up early. I don’t like it, to wake up too early. [Both laugh.] But to be here, I love it.  

Good Juju: So you grew up in Rio and you played in Lapa for many, many years. 

Rogê: Yes. 

Good Juju: And now you’ve been living in LA for the past few years, and, um, playing around the world. When do you think was that moment for you that you realized that this is it, I was born for this, I’m meant to do this?  

Rogê: It’s hard to say when, but you know, things are going to happen. When I was a teenager, I used to play guitar since I was a kid, but I don’t have any musicians in my family. I’m the only musician, so– 

Good Juju: What was the first song that you learned to play on the guitar?  

Rogê: Uh, the first song that I played on the guitar– I remember the first song that I composed, yeah, when I was 15 years old.

Good Juju: Ah, 15 years, a little boy, real boy. 

Rogê: Yeah, but at that time– I always love to make music, and when I start to compose I’m very excited.  And so when I was 18, 19 years old, I start to play and travel with my guitar to all the places. In Brazil, in South of Brazil also. And all of a sudden it’s happened.

We never know, but we feel something inside that, oh, this is my life. Sometimes you feel a little scary, you know, some afraid, because always somebody comes to me, “Oh, but how’s he gonna make money,” you know? 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: And especially with me, because I didn’t have any musicians or artists in my family, so–  but, you know, it was a great decision.

Good Juju: Yeah. 

Rogê: I’m very happy. Yesterday, I used to talk with my friend, and– I don’t have Sundays or Mondays or weekends. For me, every day is– every day is every day, you know. I’m very always happy, don’t have no difference. 

Good Juju: Yeah. 

Rogê: I remember when I was a kid, Sunday night, you know, when it was Sunday night, seeing Fantástico, do you know Fantástico?

Good Juju: [Chuckling.] Mmm, yeah. Oh yeah.

Rogê: Fantástico is a program, so it’s a program. 

Good Juju: Sunday night, program in Brazil. 

Rogê: Yeah, that’s very melancholic when I hear that music– 

Good Juju: The song, yeah. 

Rogê: –Tomorrow I have to go to school. And I think, sometimes I see all my other friends like this, still in that situation. And I don’t have that, you know. So, I’m at, I’m at– I’m loved that way. 

Good Juju: Yeah, you’re doing what you love. 

Rogê: That’s it.  

Good Juju: Yeah. 

Rogê: And [pauses] I live for this. I live for music. Music is my life. 

Good Juju: Do you think, uh, it has, uh, ‘cause you– you moved here– you’ve been based in LA now for how many years? 

Rogê: Six. 

Good Juju: Six years. Um, has that in some way changed how you see making music maybe became more of a–

Rogê: Yeah. 

Good Juju: Yeah? 

Rogê: Yeah. It’s different here. You feel more response– I feel more the responsibility to be here to represent our culture, the culture of Brazil, you know, we’re no– in Brazil, when I was there, I have a lot of partners, a lot of people, everybody in Lapa all the time. 

Good Juju: Yeah.

Rogê: So here I feel represented our culture, this more responsibility and– and I like it. And the different– the code is different, you know? So– but it’s awesome. It’s just another– you see the Brazil to another angle. I think you– you feel the same, you know, sometimes you feel more proud to be here. 

Good Juju: Yeah, I mean, I moved to, um, here about six years ago, too. And it gives you a different perspective of where you come from.

Rogê: That’s it.

Good Juju: Yeah, yeah. For sure.  

Rogê: I think we are suspect to say that– but special for Brazil. I think I have the Brazil culture, a lot, everybody loves it. Everybody loves Brazil. When I say, “Ah, I’m Brazilian.” Oh, everybody’s smiling. 

Good Juju: Yeah, yeah.

Rogê: In everywhere, in all over the world. 

Good Juju: Yeah.

Rogê: Europe and everywhere. When I say, “Oh, I’m Brazilian,” oh, everybody’s smiling because I think we have, in Brazil, we passed to the world that– that vibe, warm, human, [indecipherable], human, warm, and, uh, soccer and music and, uh, warm, that everything that we bring for the world is– has this flavor–

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: –You know, this love, I think it’s Brazil. So we– I feel proud to be here and represent our country. I think you feel the same. You feel the same. 

Good Juju: Yeah, we represent it in some ways, yeah, for sure. And you see I think you can hear as well in your latest album, Curyman II, how many Brazilian references there is–

Rogê: For sure.

Good Juju: –And so it gives you so much pride as well to hear as you’re, you know, listening through Curyman II and Curyman I, how much of these Brazilian references we– when you grow up in Brazil, I guess you don’t, um, maybe put the right value into it. But then hearing like that as– wow, that’s, uh, that’s amazing. 

Rogê: Yeah, that’s it, it’s exactly, it’s 100 percent exactly that. 

Good Juju: So was, was Curyman, Curyman [pronounces second instance with Portuguese accent], um, the first album? Was that the first album that you made outside of Brazil? 

Rogê: The first one is– was with Seu Jorge. 

Good Juju: Outside of Brazil? 

Rogê: Yeah, outside of Brazil. We made one album together in the end of 2019. And we started to make that show together. We made here in Berkeley. 

Good Juju: Oh! 

Rogê: The show. 

Good Juju: You made it here?

Rogê: In 2020, January 28th, before, yeah, exactly before– we made it in that theater here in Berkeley.  We made two shows and it closed. So we made that album in 2019. That was my first album outside of the country. And– but I used to came before, I’m always around in LA because I used to came to record with Mario Caldato’s studios. He used to– that’s why I choose LA to live. In that time, LA is the unique place that I can change from Rio–

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: –Because LA for me has everything. You know, it’s a kind of place– I love a lot of place in the world, but it’s hard to find a place that you have exactly– when you have a family. I have two boys and wife. 

Good Juju: Yeah.

Rogê: At that time, you know, if I want to go– I want to live in Bali. How can I live in Bali? You know, I love Bali. But how can I live there? 

Good Juju: Yeah, realistically.

Rogê: Yeah, I used to live– I used to love New York. I thought, oh, maybe I can go to New York. But I can’t – that weather. I can’t live with that weather five, five months, six months, a year, cold, freezing. We are tropical man, you are a tropical woman, you know what I’m talking about. 

Good Juju: [Laughing] I know.

Rogê: LA is a balance, has a balance. It has a space for my kids and–

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: –Had a time and a good weather and music– boy, I, I have this– industry is too strong to develop in my career. So that’s why I choose LA. So before that I came, I used to come here

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: –And record. And after the pandemic, and at the end of the pandemic, I met Tommy  Brenneck, so he’s a producer and then we started the project, Curyman project. 

Good Juju: Oh wow, amazing. And do you think, this perspective that you have going outside of Brazil, did this translate somehow as we were talking about as, how, you know, you feel this pride of representing, did this translate to how you put up the album and the message?

Rogê: Yeah. That’s the target, that’s the target. I put all my references there, you know, and I think it’s very clear the references there [indecipherable].

Good Juju: Yes.

Rogê: I think all the guys there, you know, Samba and [indecipherable] All these guys, I grew up learning and listening and–  

Good Juju: I saw you at [indecipherable]. 

Rogê: Here, too. Here, yeah, the same theater that I used to play with Jorge before. Two years ago. 

Good Juju: Yeah. That was amazing. 

Rogê: Yes. It was very special for me, too. And last year, we made this tour in Europe. 

Good Juju: Oh, okay. 

Rogê: Yeah, it was in England and Holland. It was amazing, too. So, for me, touring with [can’t figure out the name] was great. [?] is a legend and he’s a friend. We used to talk a lot and I’m learning a lot with him and he’s made the arrangements for the album, so the strings–  

Good Juju: Mmm.

Rogê: It’s a big, big pleasure.

Good Juju: Awesome. Um, should we play a song? 

Rogê: Sure. 

Which, uh, which song do you want to play? Maybe something about, you know, what represents you with this Brazilian – Brasilidade. 

Rogê: Hmm. Okay. Yeah. Ah, you talk about Brasilidade. So I’m gonna play one song that I had with Seu Jorge album. [Starts playing the guitar and singing.]

a de raça 

e 

de 

cor Soberano e não perde valor É o samba com a bola no pé Meu Brasil, 

se 

eu tiver que 

sair por aí Vou morrer de saudade de ti Mas eu volto com a graça de Deus Com o orgulho de ser um tupi 

Nature of fauna and flora And this love doesn’t fit in me My Brazil of skin claws My Brazil lives inside my guitar It’s the strength of your song It’s the batuque of your candomblé My Brazil is a mixture of race and color Soberano e não perde 

valor É o samba com a bola no pé  Meu Brasil, 

se eu tiver que sair por aí Vou morrer de saudade eu volto com a graça de Deus  With the pride of being a Tupi Guarani Descendant also of Zumbi Brazilian in the world, it’s me My Brazil, Dona Ivone, Anastasia, Kele Marielle is the voice of the woman Bossa Nova in the voice of João Nature of fauna and flower And this love does not fit me My Brazil of  Garricho 

Good Juju: [Clapping.] Amazing. 

Rogê: Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Good Juju: If you’re just tuning in right now, this was Rogê. He’s here right now at the station with us. He will be playing later today, this evening, at Ashkenaz. And that song, um, is so beautiful. I was listening to it yesterday and it’s, uh, from an album that you did with Seu Jorge, right? 

Rogê: Yes. 

Good Juju: How is it, um, how is it collaborating with this, uh, with Seu Jorge and I know that you also, uh, work so much with, um, Arlindo Cruz–

Rogê: Yeah.

Good Juju: How does it differ making an album, you know, yours, Curyman, and then an album as a collaboration with someone else?

Rogê: Yeah, I have the album with the both, one album with Arlindo and one album with Jorge. And I love, I love the boths. The boths are big friends, big buddies and special. The guy– I think the boths are my idols too. [Laughs.] All my partners I admire a lot and Jorge– and so I make this album with–  Arlindo was crazy because that album we had a program, a radio program like this one in Brazil, I think 10 years ago when– and we cut with the album, the program, the radio was in the studio. So we record all the– with a live band, so after that becomes an album. The idea is not be our album when we was there.

Good Juju: Okay. 

Rogê: Becomes album later. So– but was great and it’s– it was amazing time. Arlindo is the best. 

Good Juju: Yeah.

Rogê: I miss him so much. So, but Jorge is different. When I was in LA, I arrived and it was the first year, it was very tough time. When I arrived with a family, it was very hard. And this friend from Holland asked me, he has a label, Night Dreamer, ask– make album of him. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm. 

Rogê: And Jorge said, “I’m down.” And, and we start to wrote some song– write some songs, and I wrote some songs and easy to work with him because, you know, the friend’s a big brother. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm. 

Rogê: And that time I wrote this song, Meu Brasil, because we have a very polar– polar– polarizar– polarized–

Good Juju: Yeah, like polarized.

Rogê: Polarized, I don’t know. Polarized. 

Good Juju: Like in politics.

Rogê: We still will more, I think. 

Good Juju: Yeah.

Rogê: But that time we have a very– we fight about– political fight in Brazil and–

Good Juju: I guess here in the US people can, uh, also– 

Rogê: Yeah, here too. And you know, so when I started to write the song that I miss a lot, Brazil, the first year, and I started to write the song, talk– of my Brazil is like that, 

Good Juju: Yeah.

Rogê: That’s why it’s the song, Meu Brasil. 

Good Juju: Oh, I see.

Rogê: Meu Brasil mora dentro do meu violão. You know, that’s my Brazil. 

Good Juju: Yeah, yeah.

Rogê: I don’t know if it’s yours, but you know, my Brazil is Marielle’s– 

Good Juju: Yeah, yeah.

Rogê: –Her voice, the woman’s voice. My Brazil is João Gilberto singing bossa nova. That’s my Brazil. 

Good Juju: I love that because, uh, sometimes I wish that people knew how the– what the song means. But yeah, it’s so strong when you say, “My Brazil lives in my guitar.”

Rogê: Yeah, yeah, that’s it. 

Good Juju: It’s so beautiful.

Rogê: That’s how I feel. I’m feeling like that, you know?  So, and that time was perfect with the song is totally me. I remember when I started to write the song [strums his guitar a little] at the backyard of my house and so this is totally what I’m feeling right now. 

Good Juju: Yeah. 

Rogê: And that’s it. That’s this song, Meu Brasil.

Good Juju: And, uh, tell us who’s Curyman or Currimã, in a better, better way to pronounce it, Currimã.  

Rogê:  Yes. You know, people have a hard time to say my name here.  

Good Juju: Mm Hmm. 

Rogê: So for Americans– say Rogê is– I understand, because it’s like for me, it’s “a word, a girl,” It’s hard. 

Good Juju: Yeah, it’s different. 

Rogê: Different muscles you use in the tongue. So Rogê is always a hard time. So I was in a session that time in LA, with a hip hop guy, and the guys ask my name, I said, “Oh, my name is Rogê,” and the guy– “What? Rogê? Ro Ro Rogê? Ro Ro Rogê?” [Mispronouncing his name.] “Okay, brother, call me Roger.” And the guy said, “No, no. What’s your last name?” “My last name is Cury.” “Oh, hey, Cury Man.” The guy called me Cury Man. And exactly the moment I remember the song of, uh, O Vento from Dorival Caymmi. And Dorival Caymmi has that song and the, has the [singing]: “Curimã, Curimã lambaio, Curimã–” And Curimã is a old fish in native– 

Good Juju: Oh.

Rogê: Curimã lambaio is old fish in the native language. And I say, “Well, this is good because, you know, there’s a word that’s–”  and the album is a picture of you– of me, you know, that this– this project is like a film of my life here in the United States.

Good Juju: Okay, yeah.

Rogê: So, Curyman, that’s why it’s the name.  

Good Juju: So that was Curyman, the first one, and now Curyman II. 

Rogê: Yes. 

Good Juju: How did it evolve? Did Rogê Curyman evolve from Curyman I to Curyman II is, uh– what’s that person, kind of, the– album changes for you? 

Rogê: The idea is doing since the beginning, the idea is doing through trilogy, it’s going to be a trilogy. 

Good Juju: Oh, okay. 

Rogê: The third one will come. 

Good Juju: Ah. 

Rogê: So, the idea is since the beginning, because, like I said, the album is like a picture from your life. I remember, now I’m talking about you, from the album that I made with Arlindo Cruz, I remember that time, you know. That’s when I hear that songs, and I hear that album, I exactly remember the moment of my life. So, uh, when you do one album, you take a picture of your life. But when you do a triology, it’s like a movie of your life, because it’s gonna, you know, it’s going to be six, five, six, seven years only in this project because you record and after that you’re touring, you’re here and the radio is talking about the album and the life. So it’s like a movie of your life.  

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê:  And the songs, the idea of the songs has to be this– this kind of movies too. That’s why it has strings, you know, there’s a space that– so that’s the idea, because like you said, we don’t have a lyrics. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: It’s hard to people understand the Portuguese thing. So we need the– 

Good Juju: The vibes. [Laughing.] 

Rogê: –The vibes that the song has to be that this, this flavor or this, you know, 3D that is–

Good Juju: Mm Hmm. 

Rogê: So that’s why is there’s a project, the conception’s the same. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: But I think the second one was more– we more each other, I think is the sound is more–  I like the both really, and I like the first one a lot, especially the songs, you know, and everything. The first one was the discover, when we met Tommy and I, and Simon in the studio. 

Good Juju: And you were getting to know each other, how you work, or–? 

Rogê: Yeah, because I didn’t know the guys before, so I met the guys there in the studio, even Tommy and other musicians, not Brazilian musicians. So everything was a challenge.  

Good Juju: Right.

Rogê: And the second one is we knew more each other and understand more. So that’s why I think the sound is more– you know– the mixes and– we knew more, you know, it’s more.  

Good Juju: Did the album turn out the way that you first envisioned it? You had, you know, the idea of telling your story and all that, but did it, like, the final result – was that first conception?  

Rogê: The first one, the first one was a very surprise for me. I didn’t know when I arrived there, it was my first time working with a, uh, not Brazilian guy and not Brazilian musicians. So was a big challenge. So I didn’t know, but when we got the results and in the end, when put the strings and everything– for a while– we made something very I’m proud of that, the results of that one. And when you go to the second one, it’s the same. I’m very happy because working with Tommy is always good, always good vibe. They’re always fun, you know? We know that we’re gonna always gonna find some good vibe, we’re always looking for the good vibes. 

Good Juju: So, do you think you’re– do you think you’re finding that group that you used to have back in Brazil? You’re discovering your place here as the place that you had in making music in Rio?

Rogê: Mm, I had a good memories in Brazil. I used to have the [can’t figure out what the name of the band is and there is little info online] it was my band there. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: So with, uh, I used to record for great guys. My, uh– [Brazillian name I can’t catch] was part of my band for three years. And Paul Braga record the drums. This guy’s a legend. And  work with Kassin that produced my last three albums. So I’m very proud of my discography. So, but I think this project is more universal. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: Because that’s why I’m here, you know? And like you, you said before, we see our culture from the other angle, so we can all understand, you know, because sometimes if I do something very roots, it’s hard to communicate here. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: If you do something too samba, too– you know,  I don’t know if the album that I made with Arlindo, it works here. Maybe it’s too– too Brazilian.

Good Juju: Too Brazilian, yeah.

Rogê: Maybe. You know, and so I think with do with Tom is much more universal. 

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: Because mixing was so, you know, so funky and groovy, that’s the way the people that– that’s– that’s bland. Make that balance that we found in Curyman. That’s, I think it’s– that’s the most interesting thing.

Good Juju: Yeah, it does, uh, hear– I mean, you, you can definitely hear all of the Brazilian references and you can feel it’s like, this is obviously a Brazilian album, but then it feels really fresh. It has, like, a sense of freshness to the Brazilian-ness. 

Rogê: Yeah, thank you. That’s–I feel that the same, yeah.

Good Juju: It’s beautiful. 

Rogê: Thank you. Thank you so much, Juju. So, yeah, that’s it. So, I’m very happy and happy to be– I’m start doing, thinking, and not recording, but composing the third one. So, I have a lot of songs and ideas. 

Good Juju: Nice. 

Rogê: Yeah, for the next one. 

Good Juju: Should we hear from you another song? 

Rogê: Yeah, from let’s see. What do you want to listen? 

Good Juju: I do have one request, so maybe we’ll save that for later. [Laughing.]

Rogê: Ah, yeah? Okay.  [Begins to strum the guitar.] Go from Curyman. Curyman I or II?

Good Juju: Let’s do two. 

Rogê: Two. 

Good Juju: Or one. No, one because we didn’t do one, the first one. The first one was the other album. So let’s do Curyman I. 

Rogê: Curyman I, okay. 

[Starts playing guitar and singing.]

Good Juju: [Clapping, giggling.] Once again, this is Rogê.  He’s playing tonight at Ashkenaz and he’s here right now live at the studio for an interview here on KALX. So I was thinking about what’s your writing process for these songs because, um, I think I heard one of the interviews you said, um, there was a, I think it was Pra Você Amigo that had like a whole story behind, you know, it took years and is like such a unique thing.

Rogê: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, that song is crazy. When I was, um I remember that time. Now I have a son. My son is here. He’s living here like I told you. 

Good Juju: Ah, yeah, is it that son with the video? 

Rogê: Yeah, my son. My son is 20. Did you see that? Yeah. 

Good Juju: [Laughing.] Oh, yeah.

Rogê: So, he’s 20 years old. Yes. I have two boys. One is, Gabriel is 20. He lives in Berkeley.

And he’s going to the show today.  And Pedro is turned to 13 this week–

Good Juju: [Laughing.] Oh! [indecipherable]

Rogê: [indecipherable] So I remember that day, it was a new year, happy new year. I was playing, Gabriel was young, I think four or five years old. And, and I finished to play one show at the beach.  And I remember that time I was very happy and came after the show and came running, uh, walking with my band at the beach and the fireworks and my son was playing, and this melody came to my mind. [Sings the melody.]  I think I was a guitar in my– with my hand, I don’t know why. And, and started to– la la la la la la la la [singing]– And all of a sudden, my manager was around, and she record this one, she record the song, la la, la la la [singing] and in that record, I can hear the voice of Gabriel with G., you know. And I forgot this one. And one day two, three years after, or four years, she– one afternoon I was in the studio, she showed me that record: “Oh, I have this one for you.” Wow! 

Good Juju: It’s a lot of insight, like foresight I guess. 

Rogê: And I, and she showed me that record, I was very emotional because I hear my son and the fireworks and– like a movie, and I remember, oh that night was amazing, New Year’s in Brazil, you know.

Good Juju: Yeah. 

Rogê: Big party everywhere, the people in the street, at the beach, thousands and thousands of people. And I start to write the songs, talking about, I was very emotional, talking about  friendship. I think friendships are kind of love, you know, because friendship sometimes is stronger than a family.

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: Friendship – a brother by choice, we talk– a brother by choice, something more you can  choose somebody is very strong. So I have some good friends. Arlindo is one of them. Jorge and many others that I really love. Make me emotional when I remind the guys. So it’s easy when I start to write the song. All these guys came to my mind. My girls– guys and girls, I have some good girl friends too. So when I write this song and–  and I really like it. And I really like it because it’s, I think, you know, it’s deep for me–

Good Juju: Yes. Yeah.

Rogê: It’s deep for my friend. It’s like, you know, I passed many years living for composing for the other people.  

Good Juju: Mm Hmm.

Rogê: So I think I create my kids my– 

Good Juju: Well, you did the 2016 Olympics. 

Rogê: Yeah. 

Good Juju: You co-write that. 

Rogê: Yeah. wrote the song– I wrote this song for Olympic Games. I wrote this– some songs for World Cup before with Arlindo. So I wrote song for [Brazilian names I can’t catch and don’t know how to verify], wrote song for [same] Many people were–  

Good Juju: Big names.

Rogê: Yeah, and– live for that, you know, and– I don’t know, but in that time when I used to live in Brazil, maybe the composer is bigger than the artist, I don’t know. 

Good Juju: Hmm.

Rogê: I think, you know– and I love to compose. It’s something, you know, something special for me, something spiritual, I think. 

Good Juju: Yeah. 

Rogê: In some ways, I’m very spiritual, you know, connect with some–  I don’t know how to say, but – so that’s very, very special thing. So, that’s it.  

Good Juju: That was my– that was actually my one song request. Was Pra Você Amigo. [Both laugh.]

Rogê: [Plays guitar, singing] 

[Starts playing guitar and singing.]

Good Juju: Wooo! [Clapping.]

Rogê: Thank you. 

Good Juju: Nice. Nice, this is Rogê here and make sure you see him tonight at Ashkenaz. You’re touring now next, tonight Ashkenaz Berkeley and then tomorrow you have Chico? 

Rogê: Chico and after tomorrow, Portland, and after, Vancouver, Canada, and Seattle, and after  Saturday and play in Los Angeles again back to home, play there in LA. So, yeah, I think that’s it.

Good Juju: Yeah.  

Rogê: Later, give more. 

Good Juju: Yeah. [Both laugh.] So yeah, make sure you, um, come down to Ashkenaz tonight and I and you’ll catch Rogê at 8pm. Um, I think there are still tickets, so go check it out. Um, as you can see, he’s amazing. Curryman II is out now. Um, and I think it’s our time. I thank you so much, so much, for you to come here. 

Rogê: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me here.

Good Juju: You know, after waking up at 5 AM from LA and coming. [Laughs.]

Rogê: Here’s the best part. The worst part is to take a plane, you know ahh, woke up early,  that’s not good.  Be– to be here with the great people, you know, bolo de, bolo de milho, ahhh, pão de queijo, yeah, lovely, nice.  

Good Juju: Make sure you stay tuned for Frontal Lobe next, and I just have one last request if you can say, um: “You are listening to KALX Berkeley. This is Rogê. You’re listening–” or maybe you can say in Portuguese even. 

Rogê: Okay. This is KALX Berkeley. This is Rogê. Saúde, muito amor. Beijo. [Makes a kissing sound.] 

Good Juju: Yes. [Both laugh.] So I will leave you now with another song from Curyman II which is A Lenda Do Abaeté.

[Plays the song.]

 

Below is the transcript of the above audio interview performed by KALX DJ Velvet Einstein with pianist Gloria Cheng ahead of her show at Mills College on March 26, 2025.

===

Velvet Einstein: You’re tuned to KALX Berkeley. I’m very excited to be joined by pianist Gloria Chang. You have a wonderful new album out called “Root Progressions”. I thought we could start by talking about the origins of this album. 

Gloria Cheng: All my life I’ve wished I could be a jazz pianist. I just adored listening to it as long as I can remember, and envied so much their freedom and their brilliance at composing these amazing riffs and licks and, in real time. I was not brought up to do that. I was classically trained. I grew up on my Hanon and Czerny and my, my Chopin etudes, my Beethoven and Haydn sonatas. And that was my upbringing. And I never really was encouraged to improvise. I did spend a year in Paris where I would wander into cathedrals and I’d always hear some organist doing brilliant things on the organ. 

It wasn’t something that I ever felt comfortable doing. I don’t think I’m atypical in that regard. 

A lot of classical pianists just shy away from it. It’s not part of their training. 

So I was just really jealous that I was unable to do that. And fast forward into to more recent times, I’ve played a number of pieces by James Newton, who was a colleague of mine at UCLA. He’s now retired, but I’d see him in the hallways and he’d have some new piece and I would work my tail off to get it learned. It’s always very complex and especially metrically, lots of uplits against other uplits. And I just loved playing his music. I just felt like, whoa, this is what it must feel like, because his music is so inflected with jazz idioms. He’s a former flutist, jazz flutist. Flutist of the year by Downbeat for I think 20 something years in a row. So that sound is very much in his music. So a lot of right hand runs that are just incredible. And I just felt like I was soaring. And so I asked him for some guidance. I said, I want to play more of your music and I think I want to do a project. Who do you think I should ask? 

So he, in many ways, was the godfather of this project. I knew, of course, of Anthony Davis, but I didn’t have a personal connection to him. So I said, okay, James, would you help me get to Anthony? And then Jon Jang was someone that I had had my eye on for a long time. I didn’t know him personally, but James did. James also suggested Linda May Han Oh, whose work I did not know, and she is not a pianist, but she works with her husband, who is, and he’s remarkable, Fabian Almazan, who also runs the record label Biophilia, that this album is on. So I asked her. Arturo O’Farrill is also a UCLA colleague of mine, incredible pianist, and also I don’t know how many Grammys he’s won for his work. And he’s also remarkable. And then Gernot Wolfgang, a longtime friend who started out as a jazz guitarist. He’s written a number of pieces for me and I played his chamber music as well.  And his music is always very jazz inflected. So I wanted to have him on the project as well. So that’s how it all lined up. 

Velvet Einstein: And then as you got the pieces back, how much back and forth was there with the composers? 

Gloria Cheng: Well, the first step with them was editing their notation, because they’re not used to writing it down as much because they know what they want, and they’re more often than not just reading off of charts. And in this case, I needed them to actually notate every note and every rest and every meter for me. So it was just working on, oh gosh, this would be easier if you put it in bass clef and this phrase with this big rest of, a rest of a 7/8 bar followed by a 7/16 bar by a 5/8 bar and that’s just a long rest.  Could we just put in a fermata instead so I don’t have to count? 

So things like that, but then the back and forth with them was, I would say there was a lot of it. It was more me really trying to get inside the character of the music, trying to adopt the actual technique of…

I’m going to back up because one of the things that I enjoyed so much working with this batch of composers was their humility and how every single one of them, unbidden, shared with me that, oh, yeah, I was thinking about McCoy Tyner’s album, and if you listen to this track, that’s what I was thinking. Okay, what I was thinking in Linda’s case, I was thinking about Geri Allen, and she has this track called Feed the Fire, and that was the inspiration for the opening of her piece.  And James Newton would say, yeah, man, listen to…

Actually, in his case a Marc Andre Hamelin’s recording of Jeu d’Eau, and Anthony’s case, yeah, Ellington, The Clothed Woman, and you know, every single one of them was feeding me ideas and almost giving me a little history course in, in jazz piano. And I listened to everything that they asked me to listen to. And when they are inspired by a pianist like Geri Allen or Duke Ellington or, Thelonious Monk, you have to play sort of like Geri Allen or Thelonious Monk. You can’t play the idioms of a Thelonious Monk filtered through Anthony Davis and not try to sound a little bit like Thelonious Monk. Adopt his touch and his physical approach to the piano. So that, for me, was a challenge, but a really fun one to try to sound like the pianists that they were referring to. 

Velvet Einstein: And so was that a lot of research on your part then? Would you go and listen to the Thelonious Monk records and, and try and copy that style?

Gloria Cheng:  I’ve heard a lot of Monk in my past, you know, but, and Cecil Taylor.  I know those people, but for them to refer me to specific songs or specific tracks on specific albums was really fun for me. So, okay, I’ll go listen to track seven on, you know, The adapting the technique, the pianism of these pianists who were referred to in the music. That was fun, really fun, you know, not what I was brought up to do, you know, sometimes Thelonious touch is a little bit harsher than my piano teacher would have preferred. But you have to do that in order for it to sound authentic. 

Velvet Einstein: And one of the pieces that I’m super curious about now would be the Jon Jang piece, “Ancestors and Sisters” where I know he was trying to simulate the sound of the guzheng and the yangqin. And, and how did that play into this? Did you listen to those instruments to try and copy their sound as well?

Gloria Cheng: I kind of know the sounds of those instruments too. So it didn’t take additional listening research or anything like that. But what I really loved about Jon’s piece is that he turns those glissandi that you’d get from those stringed instruments, those Chinese traditional instruments. He turned it into a McCoy Tyner run, you know, and he just transformed it. It’s just kind of the same notes in the same pitches, but completely transformed it from the yangqin or the guzheng into a McCoy Tyner lick.

== Music Interlude – “Ancestors & Sisters” composed by Jon Jang ==

Gloria Cheng: So that was really fun. And Jon’s piece is such a loving evocation of the folk songs that he grew up hearing.

Velvet Einstein: Reading the notes here that he dedicated to four unique Chinese American women. The Guzheng player Zhang Jian, yourself, San Francisco’s current Poet Laureate Genny Lim, and the late educator activist Alice Fong Yu. Did you feel humbled by those statements? 

Gloria Cheng: It’s an honor to have any piece dedicated to me. So, yes, I’m happy to share it with those three others.

Velvet Einstein: I was curious, what sort of differences do you see when the commission comes from a pianist versus somebody who’s not a pianist? Do you find a lot of non pianists just don’t get things or do things that are impossible? 

Gloria Cheng: Yeah. The way a pianist writes for piano though, is not necessarily more pianistic than a non pianist writing for piano. I think that composers, they write what they want to hear, and they don’t really think about is this playable? That’s been my experience. Let’s leave that to someone else, you know. They’ve got other things on their minds. They’re trying to create music out of thin air. 

So whether it’s pianistic or not, I don’t think it’s necessarily a concern. But what I did do, or what I do regularly, If there is a passage and the composer is just a phone call away, I will say, you know, well, this lick is just killing me. And if we put that one note down an octave, I could nail it.  So that I do enjoy doing. And, the composers are usually adaptable that way and they. I think they welcome it because they don’t want to make our lives difficult and they want other pianists to play it too. So it’s in their interests to listen to what a pianist is actually down in the trenches and really trying to just get it into our system, under our fingers. They’re usually very welcoming about those sorts of things. 

Velvet Einstein: Coming back to jazz and the notion of improvisation, I was curious if, as you’ve done this, have you been encouraged to do more improvisation in your piano playing? 

Gloria Cheng: There are two places in Anthony Davis piece where I am invited to improvise. And I’ve done it in live performance, but I did not do it on the recording.

Because improvisation is not something I’ve engaged with much. And I don’t find my own inventions to be particularly fascinating. And I have so much respect for the practice of improvisation and for people who really devote their lives to it. For me to splash around and… it’s not something that’s authentic for me. I have done it when asked to, or when, I’ve taken up the challenge. But, It’s a little bit highly charged for me because I don’t really feel like it’s me. I prefer working with a grid and finding expression in there rather than making it up by myself to spur the moment.

== Music Interlude – “Piano Heaven – II. Turquoise” composed by Anthony Davis

Velvet Einstein: So your expression is within the grid?

Gloria Cheng: Yeah. And I just try to see what’s between the lines, you know,  what’s inside of their time signatures, their phrase markings, and those bar lines. There comes a point where I’m not doing strictly what’s on the page. Otherwise, that would be the MIDI rendition, right? So, no, there’s a point, there’s a point after getting the notes learned, well, while getting the notes learned, that I’m coming up with what I feel the music is truly expressing. It’s then that bar lines and meter and metronome markings go out the window. And when you know the composer also, I try to see the personality. What is my friend here trying to convey in sound, that’s the really fun and very fulfilling part of it is that their thumbprints are all over it. It’s just that sometimes I have to work really hard to see through the notation and get to it. 

Velvet Einstein: Do you remember any particular commission where somebody, there was a disconnect where you played it for the composer and they’re like, well, that’s not what I meant. Try it this way. 

Gloria Cheng: Oh yeah, Terry. Terry Riley.

Yeah, it was for the Heaven Letter Book 7, and I had commissioned it along with Kathy Supové, Stephen Drury, and one other pianist, and it was a Meet the Composer commission back in the 90s. And I was the first to get my hands on it because I’m in California, and Terry was just a nine hour drive away. So I made the nine hour drive, and I remember he said, his directions for me to get to his house from LA were, Oh, just turn right on Moonshine Road. 

So, so I somehow found my way there. So, the street sign was down, and I finally found the house, and Ann said, Oh yeah, people always steal that street sign, so glad you made it.  Anyway, Terry, as an improviser, and the incredible pianist that he is, had a certain take on what he had written, and it was not mine. And so it was a fairly, you know, I actually have a tape recording. I taped it. I taped our session together, and it got a little heated at times, as I recall, because I had really worked hard to learn the notes, of course, and come up with the sensibility that I had seen in it.  And it just was so different, and I think he was really disappointed. So I went home and I just tried to, I tried to bring myself around to seeing it from his point of view. And, I don’t know how far I got. I’m just, I’m not objective about it. But it did take around 10 years for Terry to say, I listened to that again recently, you did a good job with it.  

So I was like, Oh, thank God. But, I think if I were to pick up the piece, I have picked up the piece in more recent years. And I think I’d probably see what Terry found in my original effort that he didn’t like because I’ve loosened up over the years also. And I understand him and I’ve listened to more music over the years, so I think I get it better now, but one could say that about anything. I think I play a Chopin Nocturne better now than I did 30 years ago also. Just living helps. 

Velvet Einstein: I often think that there’s not necessarily a right or a wrong, right? Because it’s just like with fashion, some things come in and come out. I mean, do you think that, that there was something that was actually off about it?

Gloria Cheng: I don’t know if off is quite the right word, but it was just, it didn’t sound like Terry. And it needs to sound like Terry. And I was coming, I didn’t know him very well yet. You know, it was my first time working with him. And I think it just, it helps to get to know him over the years. And understand what he’s about, you know, and to not be so I think what I had my original effort was probably was very strict, played the notes and stuff. He probably wanted it a little looser.

And in fact, I’m sure, yeah, he wanted to be a little looser and groove a little more. 

Velvet Einstein: So you are coming back to San Francisco or the Bay Area, at least you’re going to be performing over at Mills College at Northeastern University on March 26, part of Boulez at 100. Can you talk a little bit about like how this project got started?

Gloria Cheng: Actually, the actual day, that’s the actual 100th birthday of Pierre Boulez. Ralph van Raat, who’s a very known to contemporary music fans because he’s made so many recordings on Naxos, of the complete Lindberg, the complete Magnus Lindberg, the complete John Adams. He’s recorded so much of contemporary piano music. And he just emailed me one day and said that he likes to collaborate with other pianists and would I like to do something with him? So I thought, well, gee, you know, you live in Amsterdam and I live in LA. Don’t know how this is going to work, but yes, I’d love to. 

So when we started discussing what would we do, I knew that the 2025 was coming up and that, that it would be Boulez’s 100th and in many ways, it’s very personal for me because I’d worked with Boulez many, many times when it came to work with the LA Phil and Ojai Festival.  And I really wanted to do something to honor his centennial. So, I proposed, why don’t we do the Structures, which, you know, the iconic piece that everyone is terrified of, and we’re gonna do just the first chapter of the first book, and then we’re gonna skip to the last chapter of the second book of Structures.  And it’s been wonderful to get inside of that piece. And then the rest of the program is some Magnus Lindberg, an open form piece that is modeled on Boulez’s open form works, some John Cage because of the unlikely friendship between John Cage and Pierre Boulez, but the strong influence of Cage on Boulez. 

And then some Stravinsky, the Sonata for Two Pianos, and Frank Zappa because Frank Zappa and Boulez had a rather notorious conversation in Los Angeles when I was working with him, it was 1989. It was one of the first times I worked with Boulez. I was home practicing, but a lot of my friends went, Zappa was being Zappa and Boulez was being Boulez.  It was moderated by David Raksin, of all people, who was a friend of mine. And then, long story short, Boulez ends up recording a whole Zappa album with the ensemble. So that connection, I thought was important to highlight. 

Velvet Einstein: And what is it that’s so terrifying about Structures? 

Gloria Cheng: Well, the one thing that everyone knows about it is that it’s a fully serialized piece.  It’s based on a row, a tone row, by Olivier Messian, who was Boulez’s teacher and it’s again a very, very highly structured piece. Everyone studies that piece in music theory class. The pitches, the dynamics, the articulations, all of that are serialized. 

And so Boulez took that row and used that as the basis for Structures Book 1.  And so it’s rather alienating. And so… But I knew Boulez as a person, and he’s a sweetheart, and I knew that there was music in there that maybe people were overlooking. And I wanted to get inside of it. 

The second book is much more florid and he had evolved a lot… there were 11 years between the book one and the book two. And so Boulez had really matured and become much more free in his composition, his approaches. And so, by doing the first chapter of book one and the last chapter of book two, we show his evolution. 

Velvet Einstein: So again, yeah, that’s coming up on, it’s Wednesday, March 26th, over at Mills College at Northeastern University with Ralph van Raat and Gloria Cheng.

Gloria Cheng: This will be part of the Other Minds series in some way. It’ll be an offshoot of the Other Minds Festival. I’m just really glad that Charles Amirkhanian understood where we were coming from with this kind of highly eclectic program. And of course, Charles has interviewed just about everybody on this program. He’s interviewed John Cage. He interviewed Pierre Boulez. Is there anyone that Charles has not interviewed? Including Frank Zappa. So, I was just happy that Charles took a liking to this program. 

Velvet Einstein: Gloria, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. 

Gloria Cheng: Hi, this is pianist Gloria Cheng. You are listening to KALX Berkeley, where music is music and genre labels don’t exist.

== Music Outro – “Two Movements II. Shift” by Gernot Wolfgang ==