This interview originally aired on October 11, 2025.
Velvet Einstein: On this autumn day here on KALX Berkeley, my name is Velvet Einstein, and I’m very excited to be joined by pipa player Wu Man, who’s performing tonight at Zellerbach Hall as part of a Cal Performances show with the Kronos Quartet. And she’ll be joining me in just a moment. But first, I wanted to get things started with a piece they’ll be performing tonight entitled Namu Amida. It can be found on a release of Wu Man’s entitled Immeasurable Light here on your KALX Berkeley.
[Music plays.]
Velvet Einstein: Music from pipa player Wu Man. That was Namo Amida (Homage to the Buddha of Immeasurable Light). And I’m very excited to be joined by Wu Man here in the studios here at KALX. Um, Wu Man, thank you so much for coming in.
Wu Man: Thank you, Chris.
Velvet Einstein: You are performing tonight along with Kronos Quartet over at Zellerbach Hall as part of a selection called Beyond the Golden Gate. And so I thought we could get started talking a little bit about the concepts that are coming up tonight. Um, I know you’re gonna be performing that last piece that we just heard, and you have a talk with David Lei. So what is the format of that?
Wu Man: Well, this piece, you know, David Harrington, David Lei, and then myself, we started talking quite a few years ago in this sort of gathering. We visited the Chinatown in San Francisco, and we had a great meal there [chuckling] – dim sum. So somehow, so we came up with this, like, fascinating– what about the history of this Chinatown, or what did the immigrants, um, early years from China, what kind of life? So a lot of questions popped up, and David Lei give a lot of fascinating story, history, in the political sense and American history sense. So we decided to say, “How about to have a musical piece, to present and to introduce, or would say to remind audiences about the history of America, about the immigrants, about the variety, about the individuals.” And so we came up with the title of Beyond the Golden Gate. [Laughs.] So tonight will be– the whole second half will be the whole piece, probably 40, 45 minutes long.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. So- David Lei– so he’s a historian. He’s done a lot of incredible work digging into the archives and unearthing all this great information about the Chinese American immigrant experience. What is, what is the format you’re gonna have tonight? Like, how do you elicit his stories?
Wu Man: Just like right now, you and me. [Both laugh.] It’s like a radio podcast show. Like, so we’ll pop up questions, and David Lei will answer the questions. And, uh, so five of us, quartet and myself, will give him questions and on the different topics.
Velvet Einstein: Yeah. And do you know ahead of time what his answers are gonna be?
Wu Man: Well, of course we, um– basically, yes, but who knows? Tonight David Lei will be, you know, more excited. [Velvet Einstein laughs.] There will be probably come up more history, more stories. Um, I think the format is music and talk, and also music come up, you know, come in, come and go. Um, sort of for audience to sit there, um, feels not like a traditional concert, the piece, but in the concert hall, but you feel something like a radio show, but also you see the live music, but also the live storyteller, live quite powerful to me. Yesterday we had a rehearsal, and then David Lei sat next to me and [I] listened to what he’s talk about. It’s really touching.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. Yeah. Wow. And I know you performed this piece, or work-in-progress version, at the Kronos Festival last year, and now you’re doing it tonight. What has the evolution been like of the piece and I understand you’re gonna be doing it again in the future as well. So do you see this as a living piece, or are you just trying to perfect it?
Wu Man: We’re definitely hoping [it] will be a living piece. We’re still develop right now. Um, so tonight will be different than, um, than the last year you saw. We’ll expand more. We put more music pieces. We’re still, you know, in, like, a work-in-progress, and every time we rehearse together, always pop up with different ideas. [Laughing.] Too many ideas. And, uh, and also for David Lei, he said, “I can talk the whole night.” [Both laugh.] You know, like we said, “Wait a minute, we only have 40 minutes.” You know, so it is developing, but also we’re definitely hoping, um, you know, audience can get something from this piece to, you know, musically, historically, culturally– something stays with them.
Velvet Einstein: Yeah. And- and how does the music tie in then? Like, what are the compositions that’ll be performed along with David’s talking?
Wu Man: Uh, the format will sometimes [be] under his talking. Sometimes just instrumental. There’s certain kind of a format of a flow of the whole evening. So you cannot play all the time, but you also cannot talk all the time.
Velvet Einstein: Right. Yeah.
Wu Man: So we’ll kind of like coming in, come and go. But sometimes when David talks about– David Lei we’re kind of, like, spoiled. And every time we say, “Okay, David, you’re talking. We’re– we’re not play.” He say, “No, no, no. I want you play.” So kind of underneath his voice, kind of supporting. Depends on what kind of topic. You know, if we have very quiet, like Namu Amida, depends on what topic he’s talking about. Or it’s very powerful, maybe we have more energetic music. And besides the instrument, I think we, uh, the quartet also, uh, myself will play some percussion, some different sound.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. So while he’s talking then, are you improvising some of the pieces?
Wu Man: We do have improvisation in the whole piece, but also more like on the spot if something, you know– David Lei talk more, um, we already fade out music, but we will come up, everyone will spontaneously play something. So that’s– I mean, that’s, for us, for musicians, that’s sort of– we’re looking forward to that. [Laughs.]
Velvet Einstein: Yeah. Right. And I understand there’s a visual aspect of it. Can you talk about the knots?
Wu Man: I think it, uh, will involved with the visual. Last time you saw, uh, with some of the visual, but the visual part is still developing. Uh, we’re gonna have historical pictures, old pictures from Chinatown, from the history, but also we will have the artist, um–
Velvet Einstein: Wendy Chen?
Wu Man: Yeah, Wendy Chen, and her work, the Chinese– very traditional, the knots. Beautiful, beautiful, um, she did so many different kinds of a style, different– usually I know in the– my grandma have those clothes with that kind of knots–
Velvet Einstein: Oh, nice.
Wu Man: –On the clothes, on the Chinese dress. But, uh, Wendy Chen’s totally, you know, expanded to many, many different– become art. So that’s for visually we will have, but also have, um, old pictures, old photos.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. Yeah. And, and for yourself personally, what– Was there anything in particular that stands out to you that David has taught you about in terms of the Chinese American immigrant experience?
Wu Man: Well, to me, you know, there are a lot of fascinating history, like, in, you know, birth certificate, in education. Um, lot of cases basically was Chinese, um, start with it and sets the law because of the case involve the Chinese immigrants. They fight over with the court. And then also, a funny thing, um, when David Lei said, those workers, uh, you know, railroad workers or in Chinatown, San Francisco, early years when they do the laundry, so people think most of the Chinese have laundry store, right?
Velvet Einstein: Yeah.
Wu Man: Um, so early years when they do the laundry, if they– there’s no store in San Francisco, so they have to ship their dirty clothes either to New York–
Velvet Einstein: Wow.
Wu Man: –Or to Hong Kong. So but Hong Kong actually cheaper and shorter. Put on the boat.
Velvet Einstein: Okay.
Wu Man: So, so when David Lei said, “Well, they’d actually not send [it] to New York, they send back to Hong Kong.” And a week later they came back. New York will be like six weeks. Hong Kong only one week.
Velvet Einstein: Wow.
Wu Man: So, uh, that’s the fast– And I’m like, “What? Dirty clothes they’re not washing?” They have to send it back to Hong Kong. Yeah … lifestyle sort of like, you know, those Chinese men in the olden days, they do laundry. And then later on they realized that’s huge business, so that’s why they all opened a laundry store.
Velvet Einstein: Wow. [Both laugh.] Yeah. I guess there are ways to improve upon a one-week turnaround in shipping your clothes to Hong Kong. [Wu Man laughs.] Wow. Wonderful. Um, and so you’re performing tonight with the Kronos Quartet, who you’ve been performing with for a long time. So let’s go ahead and, and go back to play another piece of music here. This is from the first piece– the first recording you did with them, which was Ghost Opera.
Wu Man: Yes.
Velvet Einstein: That was the first one, right?
Wu Man: Yeah. Yes.
Velvet Einstein: And can you talk a little bit of, like, how this came about? How did you first get connected with the Kronos Quartet?
Wu Man: Well, Ghost Opera actually the– was the first of major pieces I played with the Kronos, and then we did a recording by composer Tan Dun wrote this musical theater– sort of theatrical pieces. And we premiered in 1994 at the BAM Festival in New York. We took this piece, toured it– I think it toured throughout the mostly country for three years. Um, we also, um, toured it back to China in 1996. And it was hugely successful, this piece, and really opened a lot of, um, audience eye on– and also young composers. And for us too, I think for Kronos and myself, that piece actually was first time I started singing in that piece. So it quite huge influence, um, this piece.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. Great. Well, we’re gonna have a listen here. This is the third movement, Dialogue With Little Cabbage. Music there from Kronos Quartet along with Wu Man.
[Music plays.]
Velvet Einstein: That was Act Three, Dialogue with Little Cabbage, coming from, uh, Tan Dun’s Ghost Opera here on KALX Berkeley. I’m Velvet Einstein, here joined in the studio by Wu Man. And I believe you said that you’d grace us with a little bit of a pipa performance right now? A demonstration?
Wu Man: Uh, yeah.
Velvet Einstein: Are you up for that?
Wu Man: If you like. [Laughs.]
Velvet Einstein: I definitely would. That would be amazing. So, um, whenever you’re ready.
Wu Man: [Plucks some strings.] Monday was the mid-autumn festival we call Moon Festival. Um, so even past five days, but we still celebrate. We eat mooncake. So now I’m gonna play a little short piece. It’s called Bright Moon.
Velvet Einstein: Great.
[Wu Man plays on pipa.]
Velvet Einstein: [Clapping.] Wow. That was amazing. Again, that was, uh, Bright Moon as performed by Wu Man here on your KALX. And, um, I see we’re actually running a little bit low on time. But I wanted to remind the listeners that tonight the performance is over at Zellerbach Hall put on by Cal Performances. Beyond the Golden Gate, Wu Man, and Kronos Quartet. I did wanna make sure I mentioned one of your recent releases here. The Music From The Dunhuang Caves. Just an amazing story behind this. Can you talk a little bit about this release and where these pieces came from?
Wu Man: This is a very historical recording. I mean, the kind of world premiere recording. This 25 pieces was discovered in the Dunhuang– the cave was called Dunhuang Cave in the west part of China, on the border of Central Asia and China. And there is, uh– over hundreds caves. So those 25 pieces, music pieces, was discovered in the cave number 17 by– early 20th century– by a Chinese monk. Um, so the original piece was still in Paris– manuscript. It’s old notation of music. So through the years, through the centuries, and the Chinese and the Japanese music scholar, um, they convinced– this is the pipa, the lute music, not wind instrument, not bow, not vocal, not percussion. And it’s through those centuries that many, many music scholar try to translate to modern notation. So, I recording those five pieces, by five different, scholars’ manuscript translation. And to me it’s quite meaningful. And still today, still many music scholar doing the research. Because those over thousand years old music, who knows? You know, like, how do you — how can you convince, say, “This is the piece”?
Velvet Einstein: Yeah.
Wu Man: Right. This is probably next hundred years still people doing the research. [Isn’t] like Bach music because there’s early, you know– they have music, they have a notation. But for those– they’re– it’s all in the manuscript. There is not, you know, even a lot of people try to translate it to become a modern, modern notation. But it’s– I think I did this recording because I wanted people to hear what’s the different than modern Chinese music. This is like 9th century, 10th century lute music. But this lute was a Chinese lute. The pipa.
Velvet Einstein: Yeah. So do we know, like, what the pipa looked like a thousand years ago? Do we, do we know this?
Wu Man: A thousand years ago, pipa, it’s a quite simple, only have four frets.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. And how many are on the modern pipa?
Wu Man: Modern we have, like, 30 frets. Yeah. And then the right hand is very simple, just pluck. There’s no tremolo, there’s no strumming, there’s no fancy– just a very simple pluck. So the 25 pieces basically very short. It’s some– a minute and a half, two minutes. The three minute’s probably the longest. It’s all single notes. Very interesting. Very, very fascinating. Beautiful tune.
Velvet Einstein: Wonderful. And so these were discovered, you were talking about by a tomb raider, somebody who just opened up the tomb– [Both laugh.]
Wu Man: Yeah.
Velvet Einstein: –And found these. And I guess he didn’t know what they were, right? And so sold them–
Wu Man: Yes. He didn’t know– Yeah, they’re, they’re tag of different, you know, the Buddhism mantra, you know, like a Bible sort of. They’re about Chinese medicine. They’re many, many, many kind of, uh– rolling in the silk kind of a paper. They’re a lot of history, poetry, painting. They’re— it’s only discovered those 25 music pieces. And he sold it to a French guy in few cents in the early 20th century. Yeah. So the original, it’s in Paris.
Velvet Einstein: Yeah. Okay. And so you, you got ahold of them, and then you’ve done your recording of them. And so what, we’ll have a listen to that in just a moment. And then after that, um, we’ll play a piece from your ensemble, the Silkroad Ensemble, and that piece called Rainy Day. Um, can you talk a little bit about Rainy Day?
Wu Man: Rainy Day is inspired by a folk tune from Canton. Um, the singing– ’cause I– when we were young, we all know that beautiful tune. This album, that Silkroad album, because based on American railroad history, again, similar as Beyond the Golden Gate, we all talk about the immigrants. So early years mostly the Chinese immigrants are from Canton. So I specially chose that kind of a tune to put on the pipa with the banjo and then with the ruan and singing. So that was a beautiful– a touch moment for me.
Velvet Einstein: Okay. Great. Well, Wu Man, thank you so much for coming in today. And again, tonight at Zellerbach Hall, you’ll be performing along with Kronos Quartet. And right now [we’ll hear from] that first piece we were talking about from Music from the Dunhuang Caves. The piece is called Water Drum, and we’ll follow that up with Silkroad Ensemble. Thank you.
Wu Man: Thank you, Chris.
[Music plays.]
